Why I chose to believe

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Neologist mate, in this thread have you told people you're a Jehovah's Witness yet? I only mention it because it's important to let them know you're trying to feed them your JW beliefs.
Maybe you're using this thread as a JW propaganda platform?
If so, I'm sure many people would like to ask you a few things about the JW's such as why you ban birthday cakes?..

So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than banning homosexual activity???

So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than the god telling people that it is okay if they own, buy, and sell slaves???

C'mon, Romeo!

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Quote:

Frank Apisa asked me: So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than banning homosexual activity???
So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than the god telling people that it is okay if they own, buy, and sell slaves???

The JW's ban on homos is fine, but banning innocent birthday cakes is going a bit too far! (Personally I'd like to see only chocolate ones banned because I can't stand them)
As for slaves, I think you'll find slavery is rightly banned in the New Testament.. Smile

-

"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (1 Tim 1:9)

Cue the famous debate point-scoring Romeo smug grin.. Smile

-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/man_grin2_zpsc05015ab.jpg~original

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa asked me: So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than banning homosexual activity???
So you think banning birthday cakes makes less sense than the god telling people that it is okay if they own, buy, and sell slaves???

The JW's ban on homos is fine, but banning innocent birthday cakes is going a bit too far! (Personally I'd like to see only chocolate ones banned because I can't stand them)

Another thing we have in common, Romeo. I think chocolate is highly over-rated...in cakes and in other things also.

Quote:

As for slaves, I think you'll find slavery is rightly banned in the New Testament..-

No I wouldn't...and neither would you.

Quote:

"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (1 Tim 1:9)

It is banned in that passage??? I did not see that at all. Did you leave the words out? And since the original "for slave traders"...was "kidnappers"...you may be over-stating your case by a wide margin.

And whatever Paul thought about slavery...the god he and Jesus worshiped was quite clear about it:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff

Quote:

Cue the famous debate point-scoring Romeo smug grin..-

No points scored on your side...except those you award yourself...is silliness.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

. . . Why [do] you ban birthday cakes?..

Folks may also ask why you think this is so important a topic.

BTW, anyone checking the link in my profile will surely be well informed about my membership.

You, on the other hand have chosen only to be called 'christian'. You think that by claiming membership in no specific group, you escape any guilt or obligation associated with a specific sect. But the reality is you have assumed liability for all the crimes perpetrated in Jesus' name: all the inquisitions, bible burnings, executions of martyrs, all the blessing of cannons, all the crusades, and every perversion of those wearing the cloakof christendom. You can't escape simply by saying you are not a member of [ i]those[/i] churches, because you have aligned yourself with all of them

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said to me: No points scored on your side...except those you award yourself...is silliness.

Mate, for every PRO-slavery verse you pull out of the bible, I can produce an ANTI-slavery verse!
For example Moses KILLED a slave driver.. Smile

"One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand" (Exodus 2:11)

Moses in action-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Moses-fugit_zps7d0e0ed7.jpg~original

1 Reply

Quote:

Neologist said to me: You can't escape simply by saying you are not a member of those churches, because you have aligned yourself with all of them

Nah mate, I reject them all, catholic, protestant, baptist, pentecostal, rapturist, mormon, quaker etc etc, you name it.
They daren't come in A2K (except undercover) because they know I'm waiting for them.. Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/way-madmaxRomeo_zps01ae368c.gif~original

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said to me: No points scored on your side...except those you award yourself...is silliness.

Mate, for every PRO-slavery verse you pull out of the bible, I can produce an ANTI-slavery verse!
For example Moses KILLED a slave driver..
"One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand" (Exodus 2:11)

Moses in action-

Yeah...but pull out one with the force of:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff

C'mon...do it if you can.

Show me one that says, "The LORD was wrong here...owning and trading in slaves is wrong and sinful."

Do it...

...IF YOU CAN!

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@neologist,

Quote:

I suppose that would explain why God explains his purpose in terms humans may easily understand.

That sort of anthropomorphic nesting reminds me of the "turtles all the way down" story.

Quote:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant turtle." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the turtle standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

Re-quoted in Hawking's Brief History of Time.

1 Reply

@neologist,

I was also raised in the Roman Catholic faith. I became the black sheep of the family also by the age of 14. I found more enlightment and more inspiration reading about Biology and Chemestry. I started asking questions and doubting the practical application of many rules and obligations of the faith. Two of my cousins ended up as priests. I became that uncomfortable brat that asks too much questions.

I called myself atheist, and continue my way threw college. But i choose a social type of applied science. Medicine. I started observing how people react to death, how they fight against bad news, how they reunited and fought as a family against catasthrofic diseases. And wherever i turned around i heard one simple word that defined everything FAITH. Not God, not Cristh, but Faith.

On the basement of the school hospital was a small catholic chapel, just beside the hospitals employee cafeteria. I watched parents and spouses and siblings of patients attending the service. The chapel held no images except for a simple black cross over the altar. Many of the attendants were not even catholic, some where protestants, oters evangelists, etc. They were united.

I started realizing that there was something special about religion, that makes people strong that makes them brave, and hopefull, that helps them face uncertainty. Also helps them face death. It was nothing to be ashamed us. Beliving in something is not bad, it can be actually something for self grow.

I stopped calling myself atheist by age 22, i think i realized that there is something special on that connection with the unknown. The rules and the obligations that every religions has are meaningless. On the face of death and of uncertainty the only thing that survives is hope, and faith. In such situations a muslim, a jew, a christian, a catholic, etc. They all grasp to the same thing... faith.

Now I want to belive. Before I never considered the possibility of really beliving. I was a little arrogant brat that talked trash about religions. I won´t defend the church, it caused huge atrocities. I am defender of the personal faith, of personal spirituality.

This my friend is a personal quest. The quest for self spirituality. You do not need necessarily a religion for this objective. It is just a media. What it cares is what you are searching for at the end of the road. Yourself.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

neologist wrote:

: You can't escape simply by saying you are not a member of those churches, because you have aligned yourself with all of them

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Nah mate, I reject them all, catholic, protestant, baptist, pentecostal, rapturist, mormon, quaker etc etc, you name it.
They daren't come in A2K (except undercover) because they know I'm waiting for them..

If they all label themselves 'christian' how are you any different?

And BTW, there are many of those you named on a2k who have abandoned the religious threads, but not because of you.,

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@fresco,

Whatever relieves you of obligation, if that is what you need.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said: "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff
Show me one that says, "The LORD was wrong here...owning and trading in slaves is wrong and sinful."
Do it...
...IF YOU CAN!

You're reading far too much into that verse mate; for a start the word "slave" can also mean "servant". Secondly it only applies to cheeky heathen immigrants in a relatively small time window who'd come to Israel, and thirdly it says they must be legally bought, not kidnapped-
"He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death " (Exod. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).

If the immigrants didn't like the rules they were at liberty to bugger off back to their own country.. Smile

1 Reply

Quote:

Romeo said: I reject them all, catholic, protestant, baptist, pentecostal, rapturist, mormon, quaker etc etc, you name it.
They daren't come in A2K (except undercover) because they know I'm waiting for them..
Neologist asked: If they all label themselves 'christian' how are you any different?
And BTW, there are many of those you named on a2k who have abandoned the religious threads, but not because of you.

Anybody can label themselves 'Christian', but only God himself knows if any of us really are.
I've been here the best part of a year and I haven't seen any mainstream religionists here at all, they probably quickly peep in, see me in action, and duck back out to the comfort zone of their own little forums where I can't get at them, mores the pity or I'd have great fun slapping them around.. Smile

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

. . . .I've been here the best part of a year and I haven't seen any mainstream religionists here at all, they probably quickly peep in, see me in action, and duck back out to the comfort zone of their own little forums where I can't get at them, mores the pity or I'd have great fun slapping them around.. . .

There were quite a few in the early pages of these threads:

http://able2know.org/topic/120760-1
http://able2know.org/topic/51117-1

A lot of them are still members. But they avoid the religion threads. I suspect it is because they could not stand the constant reviling and ridicule from certain unbelievers. There also seems to be a few newbies poking around. WT24, for example. It remains to be seen how long their legs will last.

I liked them. I still like them. I even like you, Romeo. And I like most everybody else on a2k. Before I retired, I enjoyed my occupation which involved selling to crowds as a hawker. I still hawk from time to time at trade shows and I teach my grandkids how to speak to anyone about anything. (Including the Bible, of course.)

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When I was a kid I thought this God I heard about sounded like a dick, so I did not want to believe. I took the attitude " show me". Then in my early 20's I came to Zen and discovered Joseph Campbell and the importance of myth and came off of that a lot.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff
Show me one that says, "The LORD was wrong here...owning and trading in slaves is wrong and sinful."
Do it...
...IF YOU CAN!

You're reading far too much into that verse mate; for a start the word "slave" can also mean "servant". Secondly it only applies to cheeky heathen immigrants in a relatively small time window who'd come to Israel, and thirdly it says they must be legally bought, not kidnapped-
"He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death " (Exod. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).

If the immigrants didn't like the rules they were at liberty to bugger off back to their own country..

Your god said you could buy and sell them and bequeath them to your sons...who could keep them forever as chattels, Romeo.

It hurts, doesn't it to see that god as the disgusting creature it truly is.

Keep in mind that there might actually be a god. To suppose this...thing...accurately describes the god is an insult greater than any of the supposed insults that bother you from atheists.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

When the fundies try to take over the highway, Pray he's out there somewhere . . ..
Romeo.
Interceptor

But Mick. The only difference between you and run of the mill fundies is that you don't believe in the trinity, right?

You mentioned protestant, for example, What else might make you different from them?

I thought I saw many similarities.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said to me: Your god said you could buy and sell them and bequeath them to your sons...who could keep them forever as chattels, Romeo. It hurts, doesn't it to see that god as the disgusting creature it truly is.

Think "prisoners of war" mate, it was quite normal for POW's in WW2 to be put to work in the community under guard, building walls, digging ditches, helping farmers etc. Same in ancient times; if nasty heathens were messing with Israel, God said "round 'em up and put 'em to work".
Seems fair enough to me.. Smile

1 Reply

Quote:

Neologist said to me: The only difference between you and run of the mill fundies is that you don't believe in the trinity, right?
You mentioned protestant, for example, What else might make you different from them? I thought I saw many similarities.

If there's any similarities between me and organised religions it's purely coincidental. As I've said before, I don't need org rel to do my thinking for me, and neither should anybody else.. Smile

Jesus said:-"You have ONE teacher, ME" (Matt 23:10)
And he's easy enough to understand-
"..the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)

And Paul reminded us that hanging with an organised crowd won't do us a blind bit of good if they're all going up the spout-
"Work out YOUR OWN salvation.." (Philp 2:12 KJV)

Sinatra got it right.. Smile

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said to me: Your god said you could buy and sell them and bequeath them to your sons...who could keep them forever as chattels, Romeo. It hurts, doesn't it to see that god as the disgusting creature it truly is.

Think "prisoners of war" mate, it was quite normal for POW's in WW2 to be put to work in the community under guard, building walls, digging ditches, helping farmers etc. Same in ancient times; if nasty heathens were messing with Israel, God said "round 'em up and put 'em to work".
Seems fair enough to me..

The god said the ancient Hebrews could buy, sell, and trade in slaves...keep them as slaves...pass them on to their sons as inheritance and as chattels.

Yeah...it hurts to read that crap...but there it is.

Glad you said it is fair for some people to be slaves and for some to be slave owners. Is confirms my opinions that you simply are shooting your mouth off rather than discussing like an intelligent person.

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