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China Has an Invalid Government

Forums: News, China, Government, Freedom
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Brandon9000
 
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 05:59 pm
China has an invalid government. Here's an example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wallaces-report-on-the-secret-tiananmen-papers/

In order to be a valid government, it would have to be elected by the people and allow freedom of speech.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 8 • Views: 17,914 • Replies: 241

 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 06:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

China has an invalid government. Here's an example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wallaces-report-on-the-secret-tiananmen-papers/

In order to be a valid government, it would have to be elected by the people and allow freedom of speech.


Why?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 06:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

China has an invalid government. Here's an example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wallaces-report-on-the-secret-tiananmen-papers/

In order to be a valid government, it would have to be elected by the people and allow freedom of speech.


Why?

Just my personal opinion. I believe that a government which rules by force instead of consent is invalid. If you disagree, please say a few words to express your viewpoint.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 07:29 pm
Have you considered going to China and explaining it just the way you did on your post? I think you're really onto something there. Or at least on something.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:06 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

China has an invalid government. Here's an example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wallaces-report-on-the-secret-tiananmen-papers/

In order to be a valid government, it would have to be elected by the people and allow freedom of speech.


Why?

Just my personal opinion. I believe that a government which rules by force instead of consent is invalid. If you disagree, please say a few words to express your viewpoint.


I appreciate that, Brandon.

It just seems to me that "government" can be totalitarian, tyrannical, and NOT the product of election or general consensus. I just do not see the justification for requiring that it be "democratic"...or a product of people and elections and delivering of freedom of speech in order to be considered valid.

Governments have existed from the beginnings of recorded history...and almost none of them are "valid" per your definition.

Why are you suggesting that definition has validity?

gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:25 pm
If you can't be representative, you can at least be COOL...

An example of a government and a statesman who nearly made up for lack of representation by being cool would be Prussia and Otto Von Bismarck:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2QJSeWQoKyA/SwvBUZXoYjI/AAAAAAAAHSo/RB2iaGyVsNk/s1600/lifelead1_249809s.jpg

But the Chinese government doesn't have anything remotely like any sort of a redeeming feature like that, they're just a bunch of assholes.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

China has an invalid government. Here's an example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wallaces-report-on-the-secret-tiananmen-papers/

In order to be a valid government, it would have to be elected by the people and allow freedom of speech.


Why?

Just my personal opinion. I believe that a government which rules by force instead of consent is invalid. If you disagree, please say a few words to express your viewpoint.


I appreciate that, Brandon.

It just seems to me that "government" can be totalitarian, tyrannical, and NOT the product of election or general consensus. I just do not see the justification for requiring that it be "democratic"...or a product of people and elections and delivering of freedom of speech in order to be considered valid.

Governments have existed from the beginnings of recorded history...and almost none of them are "valid" per your definition.

Why are you suggesting that definition has validity?

Well, from my point of view, democracy is good and dictatorship is bad. The Declaration of Independence says:

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

This is a sentiment which I personally agree with. I think that governments in which the rulers rule by force and intimidation instead of consent are not acceptable, or one might say are invalid. I agree with you that by my definition, most governments from history are invalid, but that isn't my concern. I am talking about governments that I consider valid, not plentiful.

If you consider totalitarian governments in which the people are ruled against their will equally valid, or equally good, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:28 pm
Brandon, that is our government, not China's.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:38 pm
I don't see anything changing for China anytime soon. The Constitution of the United States defines our government, not every other country's government.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 10:59 pm
@Brandon9000,
It depends upon what you believe the purpose of government to be.

Based on the simple definition of the term, the Chinese government is valid. In that it is a group that controls and makes decisions for a country, state etc.

If you believe that government should better the lives of it's citizens, then in many ways the China government has proved it's validity.

If you believe that government should serve its citizens, then it is not valid, but by that standard a case can be made that the American government isn't valid either.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 11:55 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
An example of a government and a statesman who nearly made up for lack of representation by being cool would be Prussia and Otto Von Bismarck:
You can take any present German government: we don't elect our chancellor or ministers.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 12:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Actually contry's constitution defines if and when their government is valid.

Article 2 of the Chinese constitution says:
Quote:
Article 2
The National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at various levels are the organs through which the people exercise state power.

Then article 5
Quote:
Article 5 The People's Republic of China governs the country according to law and makes it a socialist country ruled by law


I'm not an expert in Chinese constitutional law. I really could be that the government isn't valid.

(There are a couple of more countries where such might be, I think, too.)
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 12:54 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Have you considered going to China and explaining it just the way you did on your post?
I think you're really onto something there. Or at least on something.
That wud not be safe.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 03:16 am
Quote:
"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time".

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 04:16 am
Winston Churchill said a lot of things, he is a favorite because of his bons mots. As is often the case with such quotations, they are ipse dixit in nature, and they suffer from all the flaws which bedevil conversation. For example, how does one identify the "average voter?"

I came here to post, though, because i have a problem with Walter's references to the Chinese constitution. The United States constitution was a negotiated document which was then sent to the states for ratification by the legislatures, which were elected by universal, white manhood suffrage. Certainly not a perfect or even laudable democracy, but a democracy nonetheless. Walter would know better than i, but i believe i am correct in saying that the current German constitution was a product of at least indirect democratic representation.

The Chinese constitution is a document imposed by an authoritarian regime, and a gerontocracy to boot. It is the product of a government predicated on notion that "we are your elders, we know best." That's without examining the warped Marxist basis of the government which imposed that constitution on China.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 04:26 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Brandon, that is our government, not China's.

Not sure what you mean. Could you explain?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 04:28 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It depends upon what you believe the purpose of government to be.

Based on the simple definition of the term, the Chinese government is valid. In that it is a group that controls and makes decisions for a country, state etc.

If you believe that government should better the lives of it's citizens, then in many ways the China government has proved it's validity.

If you believe that government should serve its citizens, then it is not valid, but by that standard a case can be made that the American government isn't valid either.

What I believe is that a government should be chosen by the people, the people should have a say in what laws they are governed by, and that people should have the right to express their opinions freely (except for slander, libel, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc.). By those criteria China absolutely fails (and America passes).
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 04:39 am
@Brandon9000,
As said: we neither choose our government nor our chancellor (and not at all our president).

According to our constitution, Germany is a federal parliamentary republic, where the parliament elects the chancellor ... and the chancellor nominates the ministers of her/his government.

Our parliament, the Bundestag, is a mixed-member proportional representation. Thus, all parties which got above 5% of the votes, are represented - whatis, I think, quite okay. But I admit that some people thus aren't represented in parliament.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 04:42 am
@Brandon9000,
I mean, there are different political and parliamentary systems.
If people in those countries want them and not the US-system - why is it that such country's governments absolutely fail? (That would quite a few dozens of all other countries in the world.)
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 05:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I mean, there are different political and parliamentary systems.
If people in those countries want them and not the US-system - why is it that such country's governments absolutely fail? (That would quite a few dozens of all other countries in the world.)

Who says the people in those countries want them? My entire point is that the people aren't consulted, so why would you think that they want those forms of government?

Germany is a representative democratic republic. If the German people decide to change their government, there is a mechanism. In China, there is no indication that the people want that system. If they try to express an opinion contrary to the system, they are arrested or told to shut up. They don't get to vote on the federal laws or have elected representatives do so, so why would you think that they want them? When the people in Tiananmen Square tried to demonstrate for democracy, they were shot at and cleared out of the square by force
 

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