When do we cease to exist?

@JPLosman0711,

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You know, you don't walk out the front door and see some entity/thing with the title: 'reality' staring you in the face.

I do, actually. In my particular case, it takes the form of a grocery store parking lot.

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You never really come face to face with the concepts we use to hide behind except for when you're forced to re-present your 'self'.

Well, that's pretty much any time you're not busy enough with something else to forget about your 'self' for a few moments. It could be argued that what we call 'self' is merely reflections in concepts invented more or less by trial and error.

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@Cyracuz,

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I do, actually. In my particular case, it takes the form of a grocery store parking lot.

'Grocery store parking lot', in this case, is a combination of characteristics (concept) which you never actually come in contact with.

You never come in contact with the idea that is 'grocery store parking lot'.

You may see the concrete, cars, white lines which define parking spaces, shopping carts, people, etc. etc. - combine all of those characteristics together and you get the concept: 'grocery store parking lot'. But only because it is first explainable. You may be able to even 'say' to your 'self', "this is a 'grocery store parking lot''.

Be-ing is an issue for being-there (Dasein) because of the constant need to extrapolate (or explain). Notice how even now on this forum you've identified all of the characteristics I've listed above as 'grocery store parking lot' (concept which is explainable/provable). You are always sure to keep your 'mind' in a state of extrapolating some 'thing' empirically verifiable. But is this really who you are?

Once again, you may see concrete, cars, white lines which define parking spaces, shopping carts, people, etc. etc. - however you never come in contact with 'grocery store parking lot'.

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In fact it is very much the opposite but ignorance is blessed.
Without the concepts you barely would be able to grasp a bunch of muddling colours going on in front of your eyes. Perception is inextricably related with conceptual frames of reference. Not to mention concepts don't come out of nowhere as if alien to reality. There is no such thing as "fabrication" of concepts. Concepts emerge out of the degree of computing complexity a species can culturally put up as a frame of work for operating within its parameters of competence. Concepts spring out of the possible "resolution" on which your can frame reality. Themselves a part of the larger reality transcendent to us on which we emerged with them.

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Germlat said: I'm not American...but my people did same or worse...point is...Do you think they deserved it as part of Christ's plan for pagan cleansing?

Well if you're not a yank what are you, we need to know for the discussion, or are you a sweet shy little thing afraid to say?
No problem, I like sweet shy little things, dare we hope that you'll at least post your picture?.. Smile

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JPLosman said: There is also a good amount of 'joy' I get from trying to formulate a way to show people how ridiculous it is to interpret your 'self' as a 'thing' of the 'world'.

Christianity says we should always stay separate from the world, do you agree with that?
"Don't conform to the pattern of this world" (Romans 12:2)
"As a soldier of Christ, please only God and not the world" (2 Tim 2:3/4)
"Don't love the world or the things in it,otherwise the love of God is not in you" (1 John 2:15-17)
"Set your mind on things above,not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)
"A friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4)
"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)
"You died with Christ from this world, so don't keep submitting to its rules" (Col 2:20)

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Who you really are lives alongside the 'world', I know that.

However I don't find it at all worth mentioning that 'Christianity' teaches that. Perhaps you could formulate your own thoughts on the subject?

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Do you realise that in the context the use of "world" means "mundane" "politics" and not reality...you probably don't but I insist in making it clear any way...

Speaking about the Reality and God here:

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

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Okay...without pontificating...tell us why you do log onto A2K.

This is a good question which I am sincerely contemplating.

Good.

I asked it as a substitute for "What is your thesis?"

You seem to have something to share...something you obviously consider important and worthwhile...but I have not been able to discern what that "something" is.
(I hardly need to point out, however, that you conceiving of “trying to show them a way around their own turds” does seem to come from a “preconceived agenda”…one you are not necessarily willing to acknowledge or discuss.

I'm hoping to get a sense of it from your response to this question.

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Without repeating myself too much, I do find quite a bit of joy out of seeing what others have to say and trying to show them a way around their own 'turds' (concepts).

This is a bit presumptuous of you...but I do not want to dismiss the notion out of hand. That would make me a person with a preconceived agenda unwilling to actually discuss it…the very thing that started our little conversation.

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I think we can both agree that everyday life doesn't have any 'concepts'.

Okay...I understand that is what you think. I am not so sure I can agree with that. But you would have to flesh this notion out considerably before I can agree or disagree.

I cannot, however, allow that it is a certainty...on which we can both agree...so let's put it aside for a moment.

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You know, you don't walk out the front door and see some entity/thing with the title: 'reality' staring you in the face.

You seem certain of that. I am not. What I see when I walk out the front door...may very well be "reality staring me in the face." The naive realists may be correct; the non-dualists may be incorrect.

I honestly do not know...and I think your comment (which you offer as incontrovertible fact) is almost certainly nothing more than a guess which you have solidified in your own mind as fact.

This is not to say you are wrong...but THAT YOU MAY BE wrong...just as you may be right.

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You never really come face to face with the concepts we use to hide behind except for when you're forced to re-present your 'self'.

I have no idea of what you are trying to say here. But you seem to be stating something as a fact...that may well not be a fact, but just a guess about REALITY. That is, as I mentioned earlier, a bad habit...and one very difficult to break.

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There is also a good amount of 'joy' I get from trying to formulate a way to show people how ridiculous it is to interpret your 'self' as a 'thing' of the 'world'.

Lots of unnecessary and inappropriate ego involved in that, JP. Each of us may be a thing of the world...and it is only a preconceived agenda that causes you to put so much stock in your take on the issue...that makes you consider it "ridiculous."

Come off it. Don't be so sure you know what the REALITY is...and so quick to ridicule and belittle alternatives.

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But maybe you're right and the aforementioned: "Why do you log onto A2K?" will serve as a wake-up call for me.

Thank you for that, JP...sincerely. I hope we both get the opportunity to evaluate (and re-evaluate) our positions as the discussion proceeds.

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As for the time being I cringe every time I see "NEW" on my 'My Posts' webpage! LOL

I actually look forward to new posts.

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JPLosman said: Who you really are lives alongside the 'world', I know that.
However I don't find it at all worth mentioning that 'Christianity' teaches that. Perhaps you could formulate your own thoughts on the subject?
Fil Albuquerque said to me: Do you realise that in the context the use of "world" means "mundane" "politics" and not reality...you probably don't but I insist in making it clear any way...

In my mid-teens I hated the whole world, then I found that christianity backed me up all the way and I've been hooked on christianity ever since.. Smile

The central theme of it is to distance ourselves from the stupid ways of the world, being IN the world, but not OF it.
In fact one meaning of the word 'holy' is 'apart', to set ourselves free.
Jesus came to help bust us out and said-
"The world wants you to dance to its tune......God has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners...to release the oppressed" (Matt 11:16/17,Luke 4:18 )

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@Frank Apisa,

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but I have not been able to discern what that "something" is.

This is part of YOUR problem. You're (by your own wording and admission) trying to find some 'thing' out of what I've written and shared on this website. I am not naive enough to think that I am not adding to the problem of what is trying to be indicated, I know language, and the continued interpretation(s) of language have their eternal pitfalls. It's going to take both of us doing our respective 'jobs' (thinking) to get something dis-covered.

In other words, I don't have any 'things' to share with you or anyone else.

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(I hardly need to point out, however, that you conceiving of “trying to show them a way around their own turds” does seem to come from a “preconceived agenda”…one you are not necessarily willing to acknowledge or discuss.

I'm hoping to get a sense of it from your response to this question.

You could easily indicate anything as coming from a 'pre-conceived agenda', any written statement at all. What's important to realize is that in doing so you're choosing to end YOUR thinking in the conversation. By saying that, you're attempting to put the burden of communication on the other person and tap your foot demanding that they extrapolate in a way which you see fit, and if they don't, you consider yourself 'right' and the ultimate 'victor' of the conversation (argument).

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This is a bit presumptuous of you...but I do not want to dismiss the notion out of hand. That would make me a person with a preconceived agenda unwilling to actually discuss it…the very thing that started our little conversation.

So basically the only 'thoughts' you have to offer are: "Ehhh you might be right but you might be wrong." - What's the point in even replying? You don't think I've already considered the possibility that I might be wrong? Get real. Or are you just trying to show me that you know how to act 'civil'?

All concepts are turds. End of story. No one, in the history of time, has actually come face to face with/interacted with a concept. It's what we use to get along with one another.

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Okay...I understand that is what you think. I am not so sure I can agree with that. But you would have to flesh this notion out considerably before I can agree or disagree.

I cannot, however, allow that it is a certainty...on which we can both agree...so let's put it aside for a moment.

Blah blah, this is more of your 'you might be wrong but you might be right'/I am a well intentioned/civil person I swear nonsense. I think if you took a few moments to take a look at your own life (when no one else is around) you'd see there really are no concepts. Most of the time when we consider life to be 'happening', we are merely experiencing what is explainable.

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You seem certain of that. I am not. What I see when I walk out the front door...may very well be "reality staring me in the face." The naive realists may be correct; the non-dualists may be incorrect.

I honestly do not know...and I think your comment (which you offer as incontrovertible fact) is almost certainly nothing more than a guess which you have solidified in your own mind as fact.

This is not to say you are wrong...but THAT YOU MAY BE wrong...just as you may be right.

Might be right might be wrong, this is a cowards way of re-presenting. You know what's really going on here! You open the front door and there's nothing but open space (you) in front of you. There is no entity with a hovering title: 'reality' (or anything else) above it. This is why the common state of mind which most people experience on a day to day basis is nothing short of delusion. We, for the most part, only experience the 'things' (not things) we see represent, and not what they actually are. Most people go through their entire lives never actually seeing anything.

I am merely speaking, delivering my thought as un-filtered as I possibly can. If you want to say I am doing so as if they are 'facts' then that's you're doing. Once again I am just speaking.

Again, of course I have already considered the notion I might be wrong. Don't be ridiculous.

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Thank you for that, JP...sincerely. I hope we both get the opportunity to evaluate (and re-evaluate) our positions as the discussion proceeds.

I don't think you're willing to do any 'evaluating' yourself. This has been a one sided affair.

I mentioned 'pre-conceived' notions in an earlier post and you've decided ever since that it was really 'me' who was doing that. Ever since then, that's all our 'discussion' has consisted of.

So basically the only thing you've indicated to me during your last post was : "You think you know what you're talking about but it is possible that you don't know!" - and: "Well you might be right and you might be wrong, I don't know for sure."

Thanks for absolutely nothing. The next time you decide to write me at least make it something worth reading or considering. I come on this site with the expectation of being ridiculed or having people try to argue with me, but next time at least make it something we can actually talk about.

I say that because so far 'WE' haven't talked much about anything. I mean I've done plenty of talking/disclosing, however it seems the only thing you want to disclose to me is the possibility that I might be wrong (something you knew I already knew).

Get your head outta your ass.

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@Smileyrius,

In fact, many nuts exist independent of any cakes.

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@Germlat,

Romeo is not affected by 1 Corinthians 10:21

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You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.

He will attempt to convince us that it's all OK if you call Jesus your pal.

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

Get your head outta your ass.

You might consider taking that advice yourself, JP.

You have very little control over yourself...and the "message" you are trying to share with the little people out here who are not as informed, aware, and evolved as you...is a mess.

I'll toy with you for a while...so that you have someone giving you any attention at all here.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

In fact, many nuts exist independent of any cakes.

Amen!

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Neologist said: Romeo is not affected by 1 Corinthians 10:21- "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons"
He will attempt to convince us that it's all OK if you call Jesus your pal.

Sorry mate I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. You Jehovah's Witnesses think birthday cakes, christmas trees, easter eggs, blood transfusions, church spires and crucifixes are evil, you can't get much more satanic than that.. Wink

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@Frank Apisa,

I'm guessing you didn't get this far into my post: (given your last reply)

I said:

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The next time you decide to write me at least make it something worth reading or considering. I come on this site with the expectation of being ridiculed or having people try to argue with me, but next time at least make it something we can actually talk about.

Thanks for letting me know that all you have to share with me is basically: "No you!"

Did you even read all of my post?

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

I'm guessing you didn't get this far into my post: (given your last reply)

I said:

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The next time you decide to write me at least make it something worth reading or considering. I come on this site with the expectation of being ridiculed or having people try to argue with me, but next time at least make it something we can actually talk about.

Thanks for letting me know that all you have to share with me is basically: "No you!"

Did you even read all of my post?

Yup.

I am probably the only person in A2K to do so.

And if you think that my comments resolve to "No you!"...you are not reading my posts with understanding.

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JPLosman said: I come on this site with the expectation of being ridiculed

You'll have to stand in line around here mate behind the atheists, agnostics, JW's/Mormons/Pentecosts/Spiritualists/Rapturists/Catholics etc.
They're all skulking in here but are afraid to openly admit which cult they belong to.
Whatever your views are, you can't be any more ridiculous than them.. Wink

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@Romeo Fabulini,

I've mentioned it before . I'm not terribly shy but do like to keep my private and public life separate....work, kids, etc. so no pics. More freedom that way. My father is full-German. My mom Italian/Greek. I hold German citizenship. I'm a permanent U.S. Resident. I'm currently working on my U.S. Citizenship (though I've been eligible to do so for 25years)...I wasn't sure were I'd wind up living. I have a husband and kid who are both "Yanks". Hope that clears it up. I'm not religious.

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@Germlat,

Several in our family married to my nephews and nieces are from other countries; England, Dutch, Russian, and Vietnam.

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When do we cease to exist?

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