132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 8 May, 2015 11:37 am
@layman,
Nooo, Ive asked you fist. Stop trying to dodge your responsibility as a responsible debator.

If youre only parroting others, well, SBI.


Also, dont try to miscast Sean Carroll on one hand and then ask me to call PZ on the other.
Cool
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 8 May, 2015 11:43 am
@layman,
Quote:

As he is suggesting, there is a very significant difference between a chance mutation "occurring" and the chance of that particular mutation becoming "fixed (within the species) over time."


yes, but so what, its only part of the toolkit.
Variability occurs vertically and horizontally, what you seem to want to deny is the roel of selection. By doing so you ignore the effects of a changing environment and time.

layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 11:49 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Time cannot be discounted and you have no way of factually dismissing it. We know fairly accurately the rate at which mutations are fixed within the STL alleles of human populations. These become a "genetic clock" that is fairly accurate.


Yeah, that's exactly what Myers is saying, but he's saying that this accurate genetic clock does NOT favor natural selection as a mechanism.

Nobody "discounts" time, that I know of, and nobody here (certainly not me) has "discounted" it that I know of. Did you somehow manage to interpret what I said otherwise?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 11:53 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
what you seem to want to deny is the roel of selection. By doing so you ignore the effects of a changing environment and time.


Nobody, certainly not Myers, denys that natural selection has a "role." Nobody, not Margulis, Shapiro, or anybody else that I know of. You keep coming back to this vacuous point. The question is what IS the role? You don't specify it. Myers says it acts to "cull" the population.

Sure it does. Is that what you think people are "denying?"
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 8 May, 2015 11:53 am
@farmerman,
Its interesting how Myers (in the Pharyngula post) seems to ignore the earlier of "neo" texts like Ehrlich who said in his text that most mutations were LETHAL., not that every mutation was relegated to a spot in the "fitness train"

Sexual reproduction, sexual dimporphism, as well as other features added a whole bag of variability .

layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:00 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
By doing so you ignore the effects of a changing environment and time.


This is exactly what Myers is NOT doing. Have you even read his blog entry?:

Quote:
Under the modern synthesis, populations are primarily seen as plastic and responsive to changes in the environment, producing species that are most strongly marked by adaptive changes. In the postmodern evolutionary view, history dominates — most of the properties of a species are a contingent product of its ancestors’ attributes. “Everything is the way it is because it got that way.” Everything you see in an organism is a consequence of its history, with the addition of a few unique adaptive fillips...

layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:07 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Its interesting how Myers (in the Pharyngula post) seems to ignore the earlier of "neo" texts like Ehrlich who said in his text that most mutations were LETHAL., not that every mutation was relegated to a spot in the "fitness train"


How in the world do you conclude that he is "ignoring" this possibility?? Extensive research simply does not support Ehrlich's claims, from what I gather. Research simply does not support the thesis that "most mutations are lethal." It rather supports the premise that most mutations are neutral or nearly neutral.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:08 pm
@layman,
Now its getting a bit on the boring side. Where ya going with your clips?
Any evidence from which to speak?

Now youre back agreeing with where Ive started and remained.

OH well, trouts are biting after 3.


PS since Shapiro is a perfect ( probably unknown to him) victim for "mining', an PZ Meyers , like Richard Dawkins is just a big pain in the ass who is more concerned about anti religious press and his vocalization about being Anti Christian. He got his big boost during the Dover trial an then hs never relinquished the stage. (Just because hes a scientist doesnt mean that everything he says is food for thought)
many scientists in the field of evolution are atheists and many are not.Being an "angry atheist' doesnt automatically invest any credibility to ones arguments.
As I said before,The arguments used by the "neutral theory" folks, lean toward intelligent Design and Irreducible complexity specifically. Noone has successfully evidenced irreducible complexity. Thse that have tried in their labs have been debunked by finding biochemical steps even farther down the path.

SCience has alwys been based on presumed naturalism (and for the Fairbnks or Millers of the crowd) at least they accept a transcendent deity who is usually out of town when something big happens.


Whether you are aware , or not, your failure to discuss any evidence as well as posting several Irreducible complexity type argumenst, needs a bit more explanation IMHO , remember that "Belief without evidence is more religion, and rejection without evidence is more science"

Im on the side of science...
layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:21 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Any evidence from which to speak?


Since you don't seem to care to review any of the literature for "evidence" which does not agree with your conclusions, I would again suggest that you write Myers, and every other "denialist" who finds the evidence for neutral theory to be more persuasive, with your extensive list of conclusive evidence (which they must be unaware of). Maybe you can single-handedly change the (mis-directed) course of modern evolutionary theory, ya know!?
farmerman
 
  3  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:42 pm
@layman,
Thats a disengenuous statement and without any evidence to support.


So , in turn, I dont feel bad when I say that youre just "copping out"

why not discuss neutral "hypothesis" regarding convergent evolution v time or even a type of contemporaneous evolution like allotropy .

I started a thread several years ago about "Is all evolution adaptive?". It got ugly as I recall (I have no ability to contrl a debate and there were several on the board who denied ALL evolution.) I think we achieved a consensus that stated that, although natural selection wasnt the only thing active in evolution, it was still the primary driving force in adaptation, or endemic speciation.


layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 12:56 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I think we achieved a consensus that stated that, although natural selection wasnt the only thing active in evolution, it was still the primary driving force in adaptation, or endemic speciation.


Well, that's great, Farmer. That doesn't mean that the same "consensus" exists among professional evolutionary theorists, though. There are serious indications that it does NOT, and I have posted some of those indications in this thread.

One thing Myers complains about (as I have shown) is the lack of knowledge and understanding that the average laymen has. This particular blog is entitled "The state of modern evolutionary theory may not be what you think it is."

I have no trouble debating what the necessary (or, more likely possible or probable) implications of a theory might be, at the conceptual level. However I'm not about to try to go through an item by item laundry list of particular "evidence." I especially wouldn't try to do that with anyone who was inclined to see everything as "evidence for" the conclusion they have already reached for other reasons (such as a creationist). There would never be any common ground for assessing what the "evidence" proves, and it would be a wasted effort in futility.

I have made some such arguments with respect to some of your posts, but you have ignored them. It seems to me that you don't want to devote any attention to such nebulous concepts as "the role of natural selection," as concepts. It seems to me that you want to merely assert what that role is (without even specifying what you really mean) and then challenge people to disprove it.

What, in your view, IS the role of natural selection, exactly? Is it any different than the role Myers gives it? If so, just exactly how is it different?



0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 01:10 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
why not discuss neutral "hypothesis" regarding convergent evolution


Why not discuss the exact words, claims, and conclusions that Myers clearly discusses in his blog entry if you want to accuse him of "being on crack" for writing it? If you want to claim that he has NO EVIDENCE for making his claims? It does not go unnoticed that you emphatically made these claims before even reading a single word of his blog entry beyond the very few I posted for you. Why not try to support YOUR assertions, rather than demand that others "disprove" them to YOUR personal satisfaction?

As I read Myers, he is saying that species as we see them today are not a product of adaptation. He does not say that natural selection plays no role in adaptation. It does. He's just saying that "adaptation" is not primarily what determines which traits end up prevailing over time.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 01:36 pm
@farmerman,
I just saw this addition to your previous post:

Quote:
As I said before,The arguments used by the "neutral theory" folks, lean toward intelligent Design and Irreducible complexity specifically


If you have not previously "said" that, you have certainly implied it. But, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you say that.

The only reason I could come up with was that, as suggested by Shapiro, some people seem to believe that if you're not a staunch neo-darwinist, then you must be a creationist.

Why DO you say that?

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Fri 8 May, 2015 04:55 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Im on the side of science...


So you say, and I have no doubt that you believe it. Shapiro said that he would prefer to see the central questions resolved on the basis of science, not ideology. But it seems you me that your reliance on ideology is what you call a reliance on "science." I'm sure you don't get, and probably never will get, the point Shapiro was making at all.

Without you having some guiding ideology, why else would you IMMEDIATELY (in all caps) proclaim that Myers is on crack and has NO EVIDENCE. You did not for one second consider reading his article and attempting to see (and evaluate) his evidence (or lack thereof) before making this unqualified pronouncement. And, given your position, you were, in effect (given your prejudices), concluding that Myers was an advocate of intelligent design (a position which he is known to absolutely despise).

Farmer, you leave me with the impression of one who has spent entirely too much time in "chat rooms" with creationists. Since you believe that Neo-Darwinism is indubitably true, they have you right where they want you. If they try to undermine Neo-Darwinism in any way, they are, in your mind, denying THE theory of evolution. If they use the acceptance of neutralist theories to do that, then you think it is a "creationist" argument.

Neutralists do NOT deny evolution. They merely refuse to accept the prominence of the role of natural selection that Neo-Darwinists want to assign to it. But, in the mind of the neo-darwinistic ideologue, they are therefore denying THE theory of evolution. Only a "creationist" would do that, of course.
farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 9 May, 2015 12:53 am
@layman,
not in chat rooms, in courts. These "chat rooms" are, whether you know it or not, frequently used "training grounds for the annointed". You do no good to education by making believe there is a "battle for [positioning" among scientists. There is none. Its merely a wait for evidence to prove how correct Darwin really was.

Shapiro is now an old guy who thinks, because hes done some great work, he can use logic based upon his authority to dispell the myths of Creationist worldviews and thereby help public education. (HE DOESNT),

Each argument with the Creationist lobby is unique nd a potential challenge
As Dawkins , Meyers, Coyne and (somewhat lately Eldredge) also dont help any cause by their strident styles, neither does Shapiro.
Remeber that Scientists are NOT group spokespeople, and the internet is a dangerous tool for half-ass understanding.

ROBUST EVIDENCE will define whats on natures mind. So far, all the neutral theory is without broad based evidence except for the fact that all the examples of LGT are among protista and lower order eukaryotes rarely interacting with advanced form species.Epigenetics also has only been shorn to be fixed in lower eukaryotes

BTW (noone ever said or implied that, in evolution "one size fits all"-but the molecular chem guys totally fail to compartmentalize their assertions). For example, they totally ignore the good work that hs been done on the evidence provided by studying mass extinctions.
Ive not been challenged in the assertion that most workers say that All adaptive evolution is natural selection (and its NOT mere culling of the herd unless you just view it simplistically.

Genetic drift, seemingly rediscovered, had been mathematically proven since way back in Ehrlich's early teaching and writing career. (It aint just a recent aha-look what I found). I always laughed when the evolutionary genetecists in the 1990's were calling drift a mere mathematical artifact based on small population statistics. (Yeh all that was true but it wasnt an artifact any more than humankind's "big bottleneck" was a mere artifact of stats)

Also, What you may think about me is of no real use or interest cause its incorrect. I cant even learn from it because youve made up your mind early in our discussions and you seem to ignore important evidence about evidence.


Final note

You use bold, I cap. so what? I assume that, by bold, you wish to make a point, well,, by my caps, you may assume the same.
Problem?




layman
 
  0  
Sat 9 May, 2015 11:28 am
@farmerman,
Last things first:

Quote:
You use bold, I cap. so what? I assume that, by bold, you wish to make a point, well,, by my caps, you may assume the same.
Problem?


Not, not at all. It wasn't the form of the emphasis, just the emphasis itself that I was making the observation about.

Quote:
Ive not been challenged in the assertion that most workers say that All adaptive evolution is natural selection


Your intended meaning is somewhat vague and ambiguous to me. It could just be a tautology (e.g., if we call it "adaptive evolution," then, by that, we mean that it was the result of "natural selection.").

There are many (and btw, I never specially said that Carrol was one of them--I'm not familiar with all his statements on the topic) who claim that regulatory effects on phenotypical changes are (at least sometimes) in direct response to environmental demands or stresses. If so, and if they enhance survivability, they are adaptive, as I would use the word.

As just one example, it has been shown (or at least claimed) that grasshoppers and locusts are one and the same species. When threatened with food shortages, grasshoppers can "turn into" locusts by way of regulatory genetic changes. Later, they can revert to being just plain old "grasshoppers." That's a rather dramatic "change" wouldn't you say? Since it helps the species (and the individual within it) survive, I would say the changes are adaptive. However, I would NOT say that "natural selection" was the cause of this metamorphosis. It was an internal alteration of gene expression.

I asked you a question that you didn't answer. Maybe you don't want to, I don't know. But the question was why do you claim that those who put importance on neutralist theory also favor ID or creationist explanations of evolution. How, where, and why did you happen to notice that "connection" (which is invisible to me--something I've never noticed).


layman
 
  0  
Sat 9 May, 2015 12:16 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
So far, all the neutral theory is without broad based evidence...


This wiki entry, which addresses "adaptive evolution in the human genome," starts out with this in it's introduction:

Quote:
Adaptive evolution results from the propagation of advantageous mutations through positive selection. This is the modern synthesis of the process which Darwin and Wallace originally identified as the mechanism of evolution....Quantifying adaptive evolution in the human genome gives insights into our own evolutionary history and helps to resolve this neutralist-selectionist debate.


This is then followed by a highly technical and detailed methods which have been devised to test for "adaptive evolution" in the genome. After this discussion it states:

Quote:
Many different studies have attempted to quantify the amount of adaptive evolution in the human genome, the vast majority using the comparative approaches outlined above. Although there are discrepancies between studies, generally there is relatively little evidence of adaptive evolution in protein coding DNA, with estimates of adaptive evolution often near 0% (see Table 1).


It then discusses some studies that reached higher estimates, but those seem to have been done with low statistical significance. It is noted, however, that:

Quote:
...the fact that many estimates are at (or very near to) 0% does not rule out the occurrence of any adaptive evolution in the human genome, but simply shows that positive selection is not frequent enough to be detected by the tests...the debate over the amount of adaptive evolution occurring in human coding DNA is not yet resolved
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_evolution_in_the_human_genome

This article does not relate to the evidence "for" neutral theory, but uses it as the "null hypothesis" against which evidence for selection is tested.

Make what you want of it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 9 May, 2015 05:21 pm
@layman,
Quote:
As just one example, it has been shown (or at least claimed) that grasshoppers and locusts are one and the same species. When threatened with food shortages, grasshoppers can "turn into" locusts by way of regulatory genetic changes.


To elaborate on (and substantiate) this claim:

Quote:
There is no taxonomic distinction between locust and grasshopper species; the basis for the definition is whether a species forms swarms under intermittently suitable conditions. In English the term "locust" is used for grasshopper species that change morphologically and behaviourally on crowding, forming swarms that develop from bands of immature stages called hoppers. These changes are examples of phase polymorphism; they were first analysed and described by Boris Uvarov who was instrumental in setting up the Anti-Locust Research Centre... they had previously been thought to be separate species.

Swarming behaviour is a response to overcrowding. Increased tactile stimulation of the hind legs causes an increase in levels of serotonin.[9] This causes the locust to change colour, eat much more, and breed much more easily. The transformation of the locust to the swarming form is induced by several contacts per minute over a four-hour period....

The greatest difference between the solitary and gregarious phases is behavioural [but] there are also differences in morphology and development. In the desert locust and the migratory locust for example, the gregaria nymphs become darker with strongly contrasting yellow and black markings, they grow larger and have a longer developmental period...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locust

Quote:
Within 2 hours, the solitary, green locusts transform into extremely sociable, yellow or red versions that gather in voracious swarms, several billion strong. The transformation is a complicated one – it involves over 500 genes, the presence of other locusts and stimulation of their hind legs. Most of these details have been discovered by Stephen Simpson at the University of Oxford and Malcolm Burrows at Cambridge.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/01/29/the-swarm-maker-molecule-how-serotonin-transforms-solitary-locusts-into-social-ones/

Quote:
...their genes don’t actually change. That is, they don’t mutate or in any way alter the genetic sequence or DNA. Nothing gets rewritten. Instead, this bug’s DNA — the genetic book with millions of letters that form the instructions for building and operating a grasshopper — gets reread so that the very same book becomes the instructions for operating a locust. Even as one animal becomes the other, as Jekyll becomes Hyde, its genome stays unchanged. ...

Transforming the hopper is gene expression — a change in how the hopper’s genes are ‘expressed’, or read out. Gene expression is what makes a gene meaningful, and it’s vital for distinguishing one species from another....

This raises a question: if merely reading a genome differently can change organisms so wildly, why bother rewriting the genome to evolve? How vital, really, are actual changes in the genetic code? Do we even need DNA changes to adapt to new environments?


https://plus.google.com/+JordanPeacock/posts/L6AeyvAHgRj
layman
 
  0  
Sat 9 May, 2015 06:45 pm
@layman,
Is this kinda **** adaptive, ya figure?

Quote:
...under suitable conditions of drought followed by rapid vegetation growth, serotonin in their brains triggers a dramatic set of changes: they start to breed abundantly, becoming gregarious and nomadic (loosely described as migratory) when their populations become dense enough. They form bands of wingless nymphs which later become swarms of winged adults. Both the bands and the swarms move around and rapidly strip fields and cause damage to crops. The adults are powerful fliers; they can travel great distances, consuming most of the green vegetation wherever the swarm settles...

Swarms have devastated crops and been a contributory cause of famines and human migrations. Swarming behaviour has decreased in the twentieth century, but despite modern surveillance and control methods, the potential for swarming behaviour is still present, and when suitable climatic conditions occur and vigilance lapses, plagues can still occur.


Some of it actually sounds like what Gould would call "exaptive."

Quote:
noun, Biology

1. a process in which a feature acquires a function that was not acquired through natural selection.

2. a morphological or physiological feature that predisposes an organism to adapt to a different environment or lifestyle.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exaptive

More generally exaptation involves the process of exploiting new opportunities and does not necessarily entail a response to "pressure." I'm thinking of the "condition" that is "followed by rapid vegetation growth."

0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  0  
Sun 10 May, 2015 03:09 am
God is nonlocal relativity and adapts local forms by using natrual relative death as its agent of change on event forms.
0 Replies
 
 

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