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Did anybody on here catch that physics forum on superdeterminism?

 
 
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 12:03 am
Is the question
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Type: Question • Score: 1 • Views: 2,216 • Replies: 44
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 12:29 am
@HpDarkman,
No,
What's your opinion?
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 11:01 am
@HpDarkman,
Hp can you provide a link
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 11:08 am
@HpDarkman,
I was supedetermined to catch it but my alarm failed to wake me up in time ... so I missed it.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 01:52 pm
Quote:
Shouldnt it be obvious that a coinflip isnt random?
Yes Hp I think it is to most of us

And thank you for the link. Now, to save us hours plowing through it I wonder if you might summarize what it says because many of us are discouraged by technical phrases like "entanglement is basicly a zero sum static " and "local superdeterministic hidden variable theory" but curious about your own reaction because otherwise why would you have brought it to our attention
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 04:30 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Shouldnt it be obvious that a coinflip isnt random?

Yes Hp I think it is to most of us

And the proof is? Anyone ever managed to predict the outcome of a coinflip?
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2013 06:29 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
And the proof is? Anyone ever managed to predict the outcome of a coinflip?
Yes Oli a quick Googling reveals the odds strongly favor one who knows all the tricks
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:19 am
@dalehileman,
Tricks or treat?
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 10:40 am
@Olivier5,
"Trick" being collo for technique

Oli, seriously, are you suggesting that the outcome of a flip is purely random

We might have a semantic issue
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 11:24 am
@dalehileman,
Indeed, one should define "random" before proceeding. I don;t know what "purely random" means for instance. It's always a mix of chance and cause-and-effect, in my view.

All I am saying is that the idea a coin flip is not random is a rather facile cliché, which nobody is able to prove. Determinism is reassuring for our rational mind, but that doesn't make it true. For all we know, the entire universe could be totally and utterly unpredictable, including coin tosses.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 02:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Indeed, one should define "random" before proceeding
Given a perfectly random flip the ratio of heads to tails would approach 1:1

Quote:
All I am saying is that the idea a coin flip is not random is a rather facile cliché, which nobody is able to prove.
Our semantic impasse must be especially acute. Techniques to favor one result over the other have been described many instances in lavish detail, as close to absolute proof as mathematically possible

Quote:
Determinism is reassuring for our rational mind, but that doesn't make it true.
I don't see how determinism comes into play here

Quote:
For all we know, the entire universe could be totally and utterly unpredictable, including coin tosses.
Sorry Oli but you've lost me utterly
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 02:19 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Techniques to favor one over the other have been described may instances in lavish detail, as close to absolute proof as mathematically possible

Can you give an example?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 02:30 pm
@Olivier5,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789164/
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 02:31 pm
@Olivier5,
"...the odds tip slightly in favor of the side that faces up just before the coin is flipped."

http://io9.com/5826157/coin-tosses-arent-really-fifty+fifty
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 02:34 pm
@parados,
Thanks Par, that was the very one I was looking for

But I'm still in the dark about the coin toss re determinism
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:56 pm
@parados,
Quote:
This study shows that when participants are given simple instructions about how to manipulate the toss of a coin and only a few minutes to practise this technique, more than half can significantly manipulate the outcome

Nothing to see with predicting a fair toss...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:57 pm
@dalehileman,
That doesn't mean the result is not random, just that the odds are not exactly 50 50.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 11:07 am
@Olivier5,
Like I said Oli, our impasse is purely semantic
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:18 pm
@dalehileman,
Problem solved then.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 11:20 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Problem solved then.
Not entirely Oli as we haven't addressed the q of Hp' s OP

Granted that s'd'ism is lavishly covered in Google, the language is a bit beyond your Average Clod (me). Still interested in a brief rundown along with HP's reaction or comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism
 

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