41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:15 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
I agree with others here concerning this issue of Guantanamo, we are in the wrong.

America has the legal right to detain captured enemy soldiers until the end of the war.


revelette2 wrote:
Usually prisoners of war are not released until after the war is officially over. As of right now, isn't NATO involved in Afghanistan along with US? Once the war is officially over, NATO and the US pull out, at the point, presumably, the detainees will be released, even the ones deemed dangerous.

The war is against the terrorists who are attacking us. It will continue after we pull out of Afghanistan.

We are not about to release any dangerous terrorists.


revelette2 wrote:
Hopefully before Obama leaves office.

Mr. Obama is not about to release dangerous terrorists and make his political legacy be a trail of dead Americans.


revelette2 wrote:
In the meantime, congress and the president should put those who can be put on trial, on trial and sentenced or released accordingly.

If a POW is tried for criminal activity, and is acquitted, they will still be a POW and will not be released until the end of the war.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:15 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
It all started when the Saxons and Angles (plus the Jutes) invaded England. Or do you want to further back?

But whatever: since Germans did awful things in history, I can't criticise that some other nations do it now.

I understand.

Detaining POWs until the end of a war is an awful thing?

What should we do to POWs instead of detaining them? Soylent Green?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:16 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Maybe with any luck at all, this case will cause such shame that finally, congress will vote to close it and the president can sign off on it.

America has nothing to be ashamed of. We have every right to detain POWs until the end of the war.


revelette2 wrote:
At very least, stop the force feeding and let them die if they want to.

Not unless we get a guarantee that people won't whine at us when they start starving to death.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:22 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
There are two medical issues with the practice as implented in Gitmo. 1) it is inethical to force someone to be treated;

Give us a guarantee that no one will whine at us when they starve to death and we'll consider it.


Olivier5 wrote:
2) the technique used--intubation through the nose--is pretty atrocious compared to the much less painful method of intraveinous injection of glucose.
I had the nose intubation thing done on me once, it was awful.

If it is such an unethical procedure, how is it that you had it done to you?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
By domestic and international law, it's illegal to kill any one innocent person. Why should it be legal to kill many innocent people including children by drones?


Come on it is illegal to target innocent people like the terrorist does however no one can fight a war or a conflict without the deaths of some innocent persons occurring in war zones as a side effect of fighting the war.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:25 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Not unless we get a guarantee that people won't whine at us when they start starving to death.


Pretty petty attitude.

I think all people should have a right to kill themselves, prisoners included.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:30 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Pretty petty attitude.

I'm tired of all the attacks when we've not done anything wrong.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:48 pm
@oralloy,
We have done wrong in Guantanamo, we tortured prisoners against our own previously held standards and against the Geneva Convention. We are holding these people for over twelve years without a charge, again against the GC of which we signed. We are force feeding prisoners against Physicians medical opinions of it being dangerous to their health with life long medical issues afterwards.

I am hoping Obama keeps up this take charge attitude and goes over congress's head on this issue as well. At this point, what has he got to loose besides his presidency and it would be better to go out with a bang rather than keep knuckling under to those bullies.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 07:53 pm
@revelette2,
Excellent point. Didn't we all hear the GOP threaten Obama for his immigration reform? All threats and no offer to provide their version of immigration reform. Obama will lose nothing by using his executive order to close gitmo. That would give him a little bit of the right action to be recorded by the historians as he was threatened by the GOP once again.

After winning both houses of congress, all they've done is threaten this president. That's what the voters of this country chose as their 'last hurrah.'

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 08:14 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
We have done wrong in Guantanamo,

No we haven't.


revelette2 wrote:
we tortured prisoners against our own previously held standards and against the Geneva Convention.

The torture took place in Europe, not at Guantanamo.


revelette2 wrote:
We are holding these people for over twelve years without a charge, again against the GC of which we signed.

The Geneva Conventions allow POWs to be detained until the end of a war.


revelette2 wrote:
We are force feeding prisoners against Physicians medical opinions of it being dangerous to their health with life long medical issues afterwards.

Better than listening to people whine at us when they starve to death.


revelette2 wrote:
I am hoping Obama keeps up this take charge attitude and goes over congress's head on this issue as well.

If you mean for him to release dangerous terrorists, he isn't about to do any such thing.

If you mean the low-level Yemeni militants, the obstacle there is not Congress, but the fact that there is nowhere to release them to.

Unless you'd like to use military force against another country in order to make them accept the detainees?


revelette2 wrote:
I am hoping Obama keeps up this take charge attitude and goes over congress's head on this issue as well. At this point, what has he got to loose besides his presidency and it would be better to go out with a bang rather than keep knuckling under to those bullies.

I don't think sacrificing his presidency in order to free a bunch of terrorists is the sort of legacy he has in mind.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:01 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

The Geneva Conventions allow POWs to be detained until the end of a war.

Where is the war when the US pulls out of Afghanistan and Iraq? The Geneva convention specifically talks about armed conflict. When there is no armed conflict and no occupation of a country there is no longer any reason to hold POWs under the Geneva convention.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:27 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Where is the war when the US pulls out of Afghanistan and Iraq?

The war is everywhere. There are no geographic limitations.


parados wrote:
The Geneva convention specifically talks about armed conflict. When there is no armed conflict and no occupation of a country there is no longer any reason to hold POWs under the Geneva convention.

The armed conflict continues for as long as members of al-Qa'ida continue to live.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:34 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The war is everywhere. There are no geographic limitations.

Not under the Geneva Convention.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:48 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Not under the Geneva Convention.

What part of the Geneva Conventions require us to pretend that part of the worldwide battlefield isn't actually a battlefield?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:53 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
I am hoping Obama keeps up this take charge attitude and goes over congress's head on this issue as well. At this point, what has he got to loose besides his presidency and it would be better to go out with a bang rather than keep knuckling under to those bullies.

One additional point you might want to remember: The plan to transfer the detainees to US soil does not involve the release of a single detainee.

Detainees held in the United States would receive the very same treatment that they are receiving at Guantanamo.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 11:40 pm
According to the reports by the British Channel 4 News, the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung, and the German public broadcaster WDR [that's the one in our state], British telecommunications firms have helped GCHQ dramatically scale-up the volume of internet data it collects from undersea cables. (Snowden related, since worked they in partnership with Intercept founding editor Laura Poitras.)
Vodafone (a Vodafone linked company is said to be the main actor) said in a statement that it complies with the law and does not give "direct access" to its cables.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 07:17 am
@oralloy,
It's been a while since I looked at the GC and I have trouble retaining information, but I seem to recall something about prisoners going before a military tribunal to determine their status. I remember something about even if they didn't qualify for POW status there was still standards to be held in their treatment. I also remember the former administration labelling the GC "quaint" which was their way of getting around all restriction placed on treatment of the detainees.

However, you are right, when the war is over, there will be no reason or excuse to hold them any longer which will be at the end of 2016.


U.S. Troops to Leave Afghanistan by End of 2016
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 07:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Oh, well, I guess it is ok since they have to do it because we do it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 09:23 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
It's been a while since I looked at the GC and I have trouble retaining information, but I seem to recall something about prisoners going before a military tribunal to determine their status. I remember something about even if they didn't qualify for POW status there was still standards to be held in their treatment.

The conditions at Guantanamo satisfy those standards of treatment.


revelette2 wrote:
I also remember the former administration labelling the GC "quaint" which was their way of getting around all restriction placed on treatment of the detainees.

I remember. The Bush Administration and the the Liberals who opposed them seemed to be in a race with each other to see which side could demonstrate the least comprehension of international law.

That thing where everyone on both sides referred to "The Geneva Convention" (singular) summed up the mutual idiocy.

But the courts actually understood the Geneva Conventions, and the Bush Administration complied with the court rulings, so gradually the idiocy died away.

The last vestiges of the idiocy were finally swept away when Mr. Obama took power and the far left stopped spouting their anti-Bush gibberish.


revelette2 wrote:
However, you are right, when the war is over, there will be no reason or excuse to hold them any longer which will be at the end of 2016.

At the end of 2016, we will still be at war, and the POWs will still be detained as POWs.
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 09:32 am
@oralloy,
This discussion should take place on another thread. Needless to say, I disagree on all points.
 

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