Snowdon is a dummy

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

Reminds me of when Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn made his first public comments after moving to Vt. Folks expected some sort of positive response and got lambasted with both barrels.

It is a damn good think the letter "I" was functional on whatever keyboard Snowden used to write that piece. He certainly used it a lot.

He ought to be reminded that there is no"I" in hero!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm sure that there it wasn't a keyboard which Solzhenitsyn used in 1974 but typewriter. Dysfunctional letters were more frequent, but not on his one.

Where actually, Frank, did Snowden write in his comment "hero"?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm sure that there it wasn't a keyboard which Solzhenitsyn used in 1974 but typewriter. Dysfunctional letters were more frequent, but not on his one.

Where actually, Frank, did Snowden write in his comment "hero"?

It was a play on words, Walter.

Try not to get too into it.

More and more, Snowden is showing himself to be a self-promoter.

But no matter how he conducts himself, I still think he should have a chance to clear his good name...but getting a fair trial.

He certainly is not a dummy.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

More and more, Snowden is showing himself to be a self-promoter.

Well, actually this is/was a response to the accusations re Putin's "tv show".

Snowden said he was motivated by a belief that mass surveillance was a threat to people everywhere, not just in the US - which I repeat here, joining him on self-promotion.

Like you said: many people in Germany don't agree with my opinion but see the actions of America as reasonable.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
More and more, Snowden is showing himself to be a self-promoter.

Well, actually this is/was a response to the accusations re Putin's "tv show".

Snowden said he was motivated by a belief that mass surveillance was a threat to people everywhere, not just in the US - which I repeat here, joining him on self-promotion.

Like you said: many people in Germany don't agree with my opinion but see the actions of America as reasonable.

Any country that has an intelligence community not spying to the very maximum of their ability right now...is a country that is short changing itself.

Way too much has been made of the kind of activity going on with regard to the NSA gathering information here on our own citizens. Most of it is not the kind of thing the Nazi or Stasi did.

In any case, spying is going on...and in my opinion, it is the duty of every intelligence organization to spy to the best of its ability.

If you disagree...fine. Disagree.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
More and more, Snowden is showing himself to be a self-promoter.

Well, actually this is/was a response to the accusations re Putin's "tv show".

Snowden said he was motivated by a belief that mass surveillance was a threat to people everywhere, not just in the US - which I repeat here, joining him on self-promotion.

Like you said: many people in Germany don't agree with my opinion but see the actions of America as reasonable.

If you disagree...fine. Disagree.

I certainly disagree with your remark that many Germans see the actions of America reasonable.

A couple of minutes ago, Spiegel published a comment, in German (translated headline: The German view on Russia: In the anti-American niche)
It relates to recent polls, which show that the more aggressive Russia/Putin acts in Ukraine, the more anti-Americanism is growing here.

Only 15% have some kind of sympathy for Putin, just 8% see him as a democrat. But only 45% see Germany as a strong ally in the West, and nearly 50% want more distance to these allies.

17% of Germans think that the USA is the greatest enemy of world peace - that's a higher percentage than Iran, which "only" got the 2nd place in that list, far behind with just 12%!

While the more "simple minded people" (as Putin called them on tv) in Germany [and France and Italy (Putin)] might really have a simplified worldview [and don't get the difference, he didn't speak about], others are reacting ... like in the 60's/70's: Vietnam! Iraq! Drone war! NSA!

Certainly the NSA-affair was the icing on the cake.

I agree, Frank, that spying will ever been done.I disagree that it should be done on allied countries and friendly head of states and governments.

The former chancellor Schröder showed some kind of sovereignty, when Germany didn't join the Iraq war. We really must show the same now and use counter-espionage against our friends and allies.

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Are you saying that the majority of German citizens blame the U S of A for Russia trying to take over a Europian nation and want to sever ties to the U S of A? I guess the Russian government was right when they said we will bury you.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
More and more, Snowden is showing himself to be a self-promoter.

Well, actually this is/was a response to the accusations re Putin's "tv show".

Snowden said he was motivated by a belief that mass surveillance was a threat to people everywhere, not just in the US - which I repeat here, joining him on self-promotion.

Like you said: many people in Germany don't agree with my opinion but see the actions of America as reasonable.

If you disagree...fine. Disagree.

I certainly disagree with your remark that many Germans see the actions of America reasonable.

A couple of minutes ago, Spiegel published a comment, in German (translated headline: The German view on Russia: In the anti-American niche)
It relates to recent polls, which show that the more aggressive Russia/Putin acts in Ukraine, the more anti-Americanism is growing here.

Only 15% have some kind of sympathy for Putin, just 8% see him as a democrat. But only 45% see Germany as a strong ally in the West, and nearly 50% want more distance to these allies.

17% of Germans think that the USA is the greatest enemy of world peace - that's a higher percentage than Iran, which "only" got the 2nd place in that list, far behind with just 12%!

While the more "simple minded people" (as Putin called them on tv) in Germany [and France and Italy (Putin)] might really have a simplified worldview [and don't get the difference, he didn't speak about], others are reacting ... like in the 60's/70's: Vietnam! Iraq! Drone war! NSA!

Certainly the NSA-affair was the icing on the cake.

I agree, Frank, that spying will ever been done.I disagree that it should be done on allied countries and friendly head of states and governments.

Any intelligence community that is not spying to the very best of its abilities...and to the limits of it capabilities...

...is doing an injustice to its country.

My guess is that the intelligence community of Germany will spy on friend and foe alike to the limit of their capability...and I would certainly expect them to spy on us to that limit.

If it ever is revealed that Germany spied (or tried to spy) on us...I would not even think twice about it.

The fact that you are so worked up about it, Walter, appears to me to be indignation gone ape.

Quote:

The former chancellor Schröder showed some kind of sovereignty, when Germany didn't join the Iraq war. We really must show the same now and use counter-espionage against our friends and allies.

You are almost certainly already doing so...and it is fit and proper that you should.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess is that the intelligence community of Germany will spy on friend and foe alike to the limit of their capability...and I would certainly expect them to spy on us to that limit.

If it ever is revealed that Germany spied (or tried to spy) on us...I would not even think twice about it.

The fact that you are so worked up about it, Walter, appears to me to be indignation gone ape.

Quote:
The former chancellor Schröder showed some kind of sovereignty, when Germany didn't join the Iraq war. We really must show the same now and use counter-espionage against our friends and allies.

You are almost certainly already doing so...and it is fit and proper that you should.

Well, you seem to know it better than anyone here.
Obviously, "they" are working against the government, the constitution and outside all of our laws. (Here especially § 3 Abs. 1 Nr. 2 BVerfSchG, which regulates the counter-espionage.)
I rest my case.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You are almost certainly already doing so...and it is fit and proper that you should.

Quite right. Nosey Parkering is hard wired into our configuration. Some people are so well endowed with the urge that they have to be retrained with court orders and the threat of fines and jail.

It the same with kleptomaniacs. Some well-heeled shoplifters have been caught with a house full of small items they will never use.

So it is reasonable to assume that it is only the moral controls which prevent the rest of us expressing our true natures in these instinctive activities and, of course, in other ones.

Look how popular gossip is as a means of picking up info of interest.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

(Here especially § 3 Abs. 1 Nr. 2 BVerfSchG, which regulates the counter-espionage.)

I just noticed that the 'directive" related to that paragraph has been changed recently: "The department for counterintelligence also takes action when other than the already named intelligence services develop activities against Germany." Due to this, they are now allowed to work against the USA [and UK], when spying here, as well.)

Until last year (at least), our (domestic) counter-espionage agency met on weekly basis in the "BfV-Liegenschaft Treptow" in Berlin as well as in the "Dagger-Comlex" (US barracks, Darmstadt) with NSA contacts to deliver ...

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
My guess is that the intelligence community of Germany will spy on friend and foe alike to the limit of their capability...and I would certainly expect them to spy on us to that limit.

If it ever is revealed that Germany spied (or tried to spy) on us...I would not even think twice about it.

The fact that you are so worked up about it, Walter, appears to me to be indignation gone ape.

Quote:
The former chancellor Schröder showed some kind of sovereignty, when Germany didn't join the Iraq war. We really must show the same now and use counter-espionage against our friends and allies.

You are almost certainly already doing so...and it is fit and proper that you should.

Well, you seem to know it better than anyone here.
Obviously, "they" are working against the government, the constitution and outside all of our laws. (Here especially § 3 Abs. 1 Nr. 2 BVerfSchG, which regulates the counter-espionage.)
I rest my case.

I really wish you would rest your case, Walter.

I do not KNOW anything...and have been circumspect in all my comments. Spying is not a pretty thing...but it has been deemed necessary by society since Biblical times.

It is going to happen.

Deal with it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Spying is not a pretty thing...but it has been deemed necessary by society since Biblical times.

So have wars, massacres, persecutions, ethnic cleansing, torture and many another not very pretty spectacle.

It's odd how Apisa uses the necessity of not very pretty things happening in contrary ways depending which argument he is making. Spying has to be accepted because it is a necessity but those other not very pretty things are not to be accepted despite them having happened.

Every decent historian starts with the proposition that what happened necessarily happened at the time and place it did in the destiny of a culture. He certainly doesn't work himself into a muck-sweat over it.

When some necessities are accepted and others not somebody is marking his own examination papers.

2 Replies

@spendius,

Jack Dawson is only on the Titanic (in the movie) because of the way a pack of cards was dealt and his winning hand enabled him to buy a ticket.

I assume the writers could have used many other reasons for him being there. Better ones in some ways. But they chose the turn of a card in order to point to the ruthless necessity of fate.

No doubt the auditions for the ship's band, in the real case, were only a disappointment for some for a short time.

0 Replies

@spendius,

Quote:

It's odd how Apisa uses the necessity of not very pretty things happening in contrary ways depending which argument he is making. Spying has to be accepted because it is a necessity but those other not very pretty things are not to be accepted despite them having happened.

Not to mention that what Snowden did is basically spying. So if spying is necessary, so is Snowden.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Excellent point. If government can't follow the laws of our Constitution, how else will we the people know that the government is overstepping its boundaries of governing?

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Exactly.

The people need to spy on their government. Such spying is a necessary evil. It's going to happen. Deal with it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The people need to spy on their government. Such spying is a necessary evil. It's going to happen. Deal with it.

It is hardly necessary for traitors to expose critical secrets and damage a nation's security.

The best way of "dealing with it" is with DroneStrikes. Thermobaric fireballs get the traitors nice and crispy.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

The best way of "dealing with it" is with DroneStrikes. Thermobaric fireballs get the traitors nice and crispy.

Get on with it then. It's no use sitting in an armchair trying to sound like Genghis Khan.

Write to Obarmy. None of us have drones or fireballs.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Get on with it then. It's no use sitting in an armchair trying to sound like Genghis Khan.
Write to Obarmy. None of us have drones or fireballs.

I don't care about the issue strongly enough to write him.

Plus I suspect that he has already thought about that option.

I did write him once about another issue (off topic here, but you should be able to surmise which issue most inflames me). I am pleased with what I believe were his subsequent actions on that issue.

0 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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