2
   

use of battalion guns

 
 
Boulart
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 08:16 pm
Panzade,
I don't blame you. What I do in situations like that is to check on the data supplied or the general topic myself and see what comes up. It can happen that both parties are correct, partially correct, or both wrong. Napoleon's advice in a situation such as this is very precise and helpful: 'First, one must see...'

Sincerely,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 09:49 pm
Great advice Boulart.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 08:37 am
Boulart: very interesting posts -- I hope you continue to contribute here.

I make no pretense to knowing as much as you do regarding artillery of this period. So I'll just make one comment and then sit back and learn.

Boulart wrote:
-No one in the United States that I know of, and certainly no one in a position of authority in the United States Army or in the History Department at West Point has claimed that the US Army 'are natural descendants of Napoleon's army.' That, again, is the product of an active imagination. The US Army does have ties to the French army, but that comes from the association during the American Revolution, not the French Revolution and Napoleon.

I'm not sure who made this claim: obviously, there is no formal link between the American and Napoleonic armies, but I think I can understand this statement on a purely metaphorical level. The American military was always more influenced by the French army than any other, especially after the War of 1812 (no one emulated the German military between 1806 and 1871, and even then Clausewitz was practically unknown outside the German general staff until the twentieth century). In particular, the writings of Baron Jomini had a profound influence on American military teaching in the Antebellum era -- Henry Halleck, for instance, was a translator of Jomini and taught at West Point. Even American military fashion was based on French models.

So one could say that the American army was a "descendent" of Napoleon's army, albeit in a strictly metaphorical manner.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 08:54 am
I am still mystified by a specific reference to battalion guns. As i understand the ordre mixte doctrine in its application by commanders during the wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars, sections of artillery were posted in the intervals between battalions posted in line, but those guns were assigned to the regiment of which said battalions were a part, or to the brigades of which regiments were a part.

Have we yet gotten a definitive answer on the term "battalion guns?" Have i missed something?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 09:02 am
Also, what Joe has written leads me to make an observation: for whatever the provenance may have been, junior officers in many of America's wars pushed their guns forward and used them for direct tactical support on more occassions than those on which massed batteries were used. At Queenston in 1812, Winfield Scott took his artillerymen across the Niagara river, and turned the captured English guns on the Canadian militia. Later, at Lundy Lane (1814, i believe), Scott pushed his brigade forward to capture a battery, which he promptly turned on the English. Thereafter, until well after dark, both sides fought for possession of the battery, and would turn it upon their opponents as soon as they could master it. The English barely managed to "win" that battle when Scott's brigade was withdrawn, without the guns, after Scott was wounded and carried from the field.

At Buena Vista, Jackson pushed his section of guns forward, and thereby managed to hold of Santa Anna's attack after the Illinois militia skeddadled. At Contreras, Jackson once again pushed forward his guns, and raked the Mexican position, which collapses shortly thereafter--Jackson did this on both occassions without having direct infantry support. Grant, although a junior infantry officer, during the assualt on the San Cosme gate, did essentially the same thing.

I would be interested in Kiley's comments on the use of artillery by Americans which did not necessarily have antecedants in European warfare.
0 Replies
 
Boulart
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 06:41 pm
Joe,
Thanks very much and I do hope I can contribute to the forum as much as practicable.

The reference was made to myths of the period and 'US authors', the gist of the quotation being '...made worse by the West Point/Princeton school of thought...that they [the US Army] are the natural descendants of Napoleon's army...' That's the meaning I objected to. Being a retired Marine Corps artillery officer and a West Point graduate, there is no basis for either assumption/accusation.

Your points are well taken, however, even though Halleck taught French for one year at West Point after graduation. He also wrote Elements of Military Art and Science, Jomini being a major reference along with Scharnhorst, Napier, and Guibert, and also included a French translation of one Russian book. Saxe was also a reference. This work was published in 1846. Halleck is probably the most underrated general officer of the Civil War. It was because of his influence that both Grant and Sherman rose to where they did-Halleck protected them early in the war when they were under severe scrutiny and ensured their advancement. Halleck also published two books on mining law and one on international law that remained a standard text for years. His wife was one of the granddaughters of Alexander Hamilton.

Jomini and Clausewitz is for another time and anther day. Suffice it to say that Clausewitz was a combat infantryman and a preeminent staff officer who thoroughly knew his profession. Jomini was nothing more than a staff officer, who was largely incompetent, and his 'histories' are full of error and too much credit being given to himself that he didn't deserve. Also, he was a deserter and renegade.

Sincerely,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
Boulart
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 06:46 pm
Setanta,
The American usage of artillery did come from European antecedents. British doctrine (for lack of a better term) was preeminent until Frnech influence in the Revolution with artillery and engineering became dominant. The adoption of the Gribeauval artillery system in 1809 was indicative of the European influence on US artillery equipment and practice.

The difference is in scale. The battles of the War of 1812 and the Mexican War were small compared to the massive fights in Europe from 1792-1815. However, American artillery was especially decisive in Mexico even though the numbers were small. Aggressive use of available artillery was reminiscent of Senarmont and Drouot's aggressive tactics. Hindman's US artillery battalion on the Niagara frontier in 1814 that supported Brown's 'Left Division' was given the supreme compliment by the British in those desperate, savage battles: 'We thought you were French.'

Have you read any of Fairfax Downey's material on artillery?

Sincerely,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 09:00 pm
No, as military history is a hobby for me, not a specialty. What i know of the campaigns in the Niagara penninsula i know because i study social and political history--and, as with the Mexican war, these were events with profound effects on the social and political histories of the respective nations. So, for example, i know less of precisely how Porfiro Diaz handled his cavalry at Puebla on cinqo de mayo than i do about how this effected his career, eventually resulting in his "presidency for life."

I've always had an interest, but have devoted less time to detailed study of a single arm. The most fascinating works i've read recently of military specialty have been those which dealt with the French innovations from Maurice de Saxe to the wars of the Revolution. Fascinatin' stuff . . .
0 Replies
 
Boulart
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 04:20 am
Setanta,
Now that is very interesting and your perspective on events would be most enlightening.
With regard to battalion guns and tactics, the ordre mixte was a tactic, not a doctrine. French artillery doctrine, as taught in the excellent French artillery schools post-1763 was in its basic form infantry/artillery cooperation, what would be called combined arms now. The Gribeauval System was designed to support this doctrine.
French infantry tactics evolved from the necessity to defeat Frederick's linear tactics, and the French army had performed miserably during the Seven Years' War. De Broglie, one of the few French generals on the continent to have been somewhat successful, was one of the leaders in the reform movement and he conducted experimental manuevers in Normandy in the 1770s with troops performing realistic maneuvers in a force on force environment. One side would use the typical linear tactics, the other would use the experiemental columns and skirmishers. Artillery and cavalry were used by both sides. The result on paper was the excellent 1791 Reglement, but little or nothing was mentioned about the columns and skirmishers in the Reglement. These evolved when the shooting started in 1792 and were used to supplement the Reglement, not to supplant it.

The French 4-pounder was designed as battalion artillery, but by 1800 the battalion guns were abolished, the artillery being concentrated at division and army level, then also at corps level after 1800. The Prussians, Austrians, and Russians still employed 'battalion guns' which actually dissipated their artillery strength, the most extreme example being the Prussian use of it at Jena where is was for all intents and purposes useless. The French understood that artillery needed to be massed to be effective, with an artillery chain of command and staff to properly employ it on the battlefield and on campaign. This realization came to the other continental powers late, and they never had the command and control apparatus for their artillery from army level downward that the French had developed through trial and error since 1763.

Two books you might find useful are Engineering the Revolution by Ken Alder and The Background of Napoleonic Warfare by Robert Quimby. They are full of good and useful information and are well-sourced.

Sincerely,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 05:52 am
In reading about the use of ordre mixte formations, i've read that Napoleon himself did not issue instructions on the "preferred" deployment of troops before 1809. There is some evidence that corps and division commanders published to their subordinates the particular deployments they preferred. You have also mentioned the American adoption of French methods as occurring in 1809. This is interesting, as 1809 is the year of Wagram. The Archduke Karl had attempted to impose a primitive form of army heirarchy on the Austrian army, with corps operating ostensibly as they did in the French army. Although the Austrians did not use this method as effectively as the French, it was a step in the right direction, and after the final French push at Wagram, there was a "corps" still in reserve to cover Archduke Karl's retreat. He was pretty incensed that the Emperor decided to treat with Napoleon, as he, Karl, felt he could continue to operate in the field with an army which had not suffered as badly in the field as had the French. (I personally consider the Wagram campaign as marking the high-water point of la Grande Armée--the death of Lannes is exemplary of what Napoleon lost, as so many experienced and invaluable officers and NCO's were lost on that striken field. One regiment, i believe it was the 113ième Legère, came out of the line in the command of the senior corporal. It would not immediately be evident, but the ability of the army to perform to the highest standards was fatally damaged at Wagram.)

I was interested in your contention that 1809 is the year in which the Americans adopted French policy, as that would have been to optimum era for French military policy. I rather think that the Prussians learned little or nothing from Jena and Auerstadt, and i think the regulations published by Yorke, Scharnhorst and Blucher (i believe?) subsequently showed that they had not fully appreciated what the French were doing. Although Frederick had used his "oblique attack" to put the maximum force at what he considered the critical point (and he was often wrong, and paid a heavy price), he nevertheless had only slightly modified the traditional parrallel order of opposing armies which had obtained since ancient time. Davout's brilliant performance at Auerstadt shows just how crucial the ability of lower level formations to operate on convergent or divergent operational axes was to the French policy. I don not think the United States could have had a better model, nor developed any better a policy on their own.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 08:36 am
Boulart wrote:
Jomini was nothing more than a staff officer, who was largely incompetent, and his 'histories' are full of error and too much credit being given to himself that he didn't deserve. Also, he was a deserter and renegade.

I said he was influential. I didn't say that he was deservedly so :wink:
0 Replies
 
Boulart
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 02:21 pm
Joe,
Understand completely. I just made mention of it to underscore the difference between the two 'dueling theorists.'

Sincerely,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
DaveHollins
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2004 05:24 pm
Shocked

Oh dear, so many myths written by those who do not do their research. Ask Kevin why he has not read the 1762 report by Gribeauval nor the only primary source on the Gribeauval system - the 1792 Table 93 vols with 125 diahgrams).

But let us start in the US. Kevin and others decry Jomini because he calls Bertheir a chief clerk. This is perhaps unfair as Berthier did have some logistical input, although the 1800 and 1812 campaigns showed his incompetence. in terms of the modern NATO G1 - G5 system (logistics being G4), Berthier had no other input and was indeed just a scribe. However, Jomini's place is best summed up by another former USMC officer Hittle: "The well-worn battlefields of the Old World were the test tubes in which N mixed the ingredients that produced our modern concept of war" Hittle's introduction to a condensed version of Jomini (p.396 of the 1982 Stackpole reprint). He then goes on with the usual stuff about how Jomini synthesised N's methods and ACW Generals carrried the book in their pockets. Thi of cours eshould also tell you about the US military's view of its own heritage (well until the Iraq war perhaps??). If you read the works of Elting, Graves and others, loosely known as the West point/princeton schoola s they all mixed in this way, you will find the common thread - that all modern developments came from Napoleon, the Allies "reacted" and copied it and thus Moltke's system of modern war is justa stage on the road from N to now. Trouble is, these are claims made by people, who have not read their German material.

Let us start with the claim above about Charles and the korps system - it is a myth put about by such theorists, based on an outline design of 1st March 1809 as part of the war planning. In fact corps had existed sionce the 18th century meaning either "something bigger than a division" or a force with a detached task, and as such you will find it in many documents by all European armies. The Austraisn called their regts out and allocated them to various formations under a comamnder with an appropriate staff. However, since 1757, Austria had a system of chiefs of staff and trained staff officers (France simply rotated officers from the line until 1816) and by revealing the strategic concept behind the orders, allowed the junior comamdners to act in accordance with it. The system developed until 1811, when Radetzky became the first modern chief of staff (see A Horsetzky) and as the Prussians were developing along similar lines, Radetzky could direct hte Allied armies to concentrate on Napoleon's army at Leipzig (Berthier of course famously lost his head in 1809). The French simply made their "corps" permanent in Boulogne as their whole nation was ona permanent war footing - however, Elting's claim that France had permanent divsions in the 1780s is another of these badly defined terms copied repeatedly - they grouped regiments into administrative districts and the units did not go to war together, so it was no different from Prussia's cantons and the Austrian general Kommando proivincial system.

However, it si this repetion, which gives rise to myths in the artilelry sphere - I would again point out that reading Duffy: Instrument of War and Hennebert's biography tells you the truth about htis man, a miner and bad gunb designer, whose systemw as swiftly replaced by Napoleon where it mattered. As a test, let me ask again - as the bricole is clearly shown in Austrian service in 1757, how did Gribeauval manage to "invent" it before then? There is a clue in both the 1792 Table and se Scheel's treatsie, which talk about G's changes post-7 Years war. While G did introuduce some change, there is no System, just a cocked-up attempt to modify Prussian designs in line with lichtenstein - and on the siege guns, have a look at Chartrand's Osprey where he notes the G siege guns have long carriages and use a quoin. Indeed, G's 8pdrs were not used by N himself unless absolutely necessary, as he used the Yr XI/Lichtenstein captured 6pdrs. Don't ask me - ask a Napoleonic gunner! L certainly did adopt certain features, but his change was the systematoic approach and the 12pdr being light enough for effective field use. Gribeauval did not even grasp the physical theory of moments and finsihes up with one man with two short spikes stuck square behind the trail end whereas an L gun could be moved from the side by a man with a long traversing spar.

As I said above, much of the myth comes from not doing the reading. In the US, the G guns were adopted (in the sense of taken on) in the AWI and they looked good compared with old French and UK designs, being replaced later with Congreve trails and rifled barrels etc. That is why the myth began - not an examination of European artillery. The French readopted Gribeauval post 1815 as they had a system - having lost most of their Yr XI pieces, but it was replaced as soon as cash allowed. the claim made by some French gunners that the Yr Xi was too fragile is just that - a claim - and Allix noted that there was no documented case.

Kevin claims above that windage has no effect on the force behidn the projectile - oh really? What do you suppose happens to some of the explosive force if it can get between the projectile and the inside edge of the tube. However Kevin has also said he didn't understand why there was a min range - well, Kevin, modern guns can absorb recoil, but Napoleonic pieces did not, thus on firing the projectile flew in an arc. An anaonymous officer from IR42 describes how the French fired over his unit in just this way at Wagram and it is the reason why the Austrains used canister at Lodi (Nosworthy being another who does not understand Napoleonic ballistics).

On the battalion guns, the Austrians and everyone else used them in the 18th century to augment the line (some sources suggest they were worth 300 men with muskets) and it was Napoleon who reintroduced them in 1809. Austria had relied since the 1780s on her punch coming from the batteries in the Reserve - hence the HQ staff having direction of them in a battle. Guns were massed from 1808 at briagde level, but this was in part diue to them being 6pdrs, which were not really practical for battalion use.

Battalion guns started off leading their unit's advance to soften up the opposition line and when the lines closed, they supported the lines volleying. Austrian 1769 regs limited the number of gaps to two per regt (5 or 6 guns) and so batteries were appearing as a result as well as all armies massing guns at key points on the battlefield from their reserves. However, hte French were somewhat behind - as Lauerma (1956) notes, the batteries and general French gun deployments at Jemappes (1792)and Neerwinden (1793) were too lateral (ie: spread out along the line and not focusing their fire). However, the French massed their guns in lines ahead of the infantry columns and broke through by sheer numbers at Jemappes. When numbers were equal, they tried the same thing at Nerwinden and cam dramatically unstuck - Smola took his battery and some other guns forward witha cavalry escort to pin down hte French left on the main road. Then at Famars (1793), the Austraisn placed a Cavalry battery on hte front of each of four columns and smashe dtheir way through the French lines. the French tried to respond with a similar tactic at Wattignes in October 1793 but failed on day 1, so they resorted to their stock tactic of a mass column with artillery lined up in front and were successful, thus crystalising the Jemappes sledgehammer, which you see repeated at battles like Friedland and Wagram. The problem was that the enemy tended to fire back and it was very costly on hte infantry formed up right behind (Senarmont's claim to have been out on his own comes only from him and is countered by Girod de l'Ain's memoir of being in 9e Legere right behind and indeed standard French tactoics, described above).

Thus batt guns were infantry support weapons, but the tactic they used was adopted by the French with their batteries to create the sledgehammer, so I suppose the tactic could be said to have decided battles when the French broke through.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, EVERYONE! - Discussion by OmSigDAVID
WIND AND WATER - Discussion by Setanta
Who ordered the construction of the Berlin Wall? - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
True version of Vlad Dracula, 15'th century - Discussion by gungasnake
ONE SMALL STEP . . . - Discussion by Setanta
History of Gun Control - Discussion by gungasnake
Where did our notion of a 'scholar' come from? - Discussion by TuringEquivalent
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/19/2024 at 05:20:12