au1929
 
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 01:19 pm
I don't know what it is like in your neck of the woods but in NY City at many of the high schools both teachers and students can instead of learning expect to get intimidated, beat up and robbed and worse. It is so bad that teachers have threatened to walk out and many parents have pulled their children out of school. Essentially they are out of control. The remedy to install cameras and hire more school safety officers just won't cut it in my opinion.
I think it should be to inflict real punishment on the evil doers. The slap on the wrist will never work. If I had my way it would be public caning and than expulsion. If they don't care to learn so be it. But they should not be allowed to interfere with the education of others.
The failing schools that are being talked about are failing in good measure through the efforts of these incorrigables. Comments?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 6,153 • Replies: 57
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 01:52 pm
Caning? For whom? The students who don't want to learn? The teachers who can't or don't want to teach? The administrators with no imaginations and can't make things work out? The taxpayers who won't pony up enough money to pay for better teachers and improved facilities?

You might need a lotta canes there.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 02:00 pm
Start with the disruptors they are the major problem.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 02:10 pm
Oh fer....
How about we cane Jane Swift for cutting another 10% from the public school budget (in Mass.)
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 02:14 pm
au1929 wrote:
Start with the disruptors they are the major problem.


That's like cutting off your toe because it has a blister caused by bad shoes.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 02:37 pm
littlek

How do you frame some one elses response such as you did.

That's like cutting off your toe because it has a blister caused by bad shoes.

Explain. I think it's more like stopping an infection or cutting out a boil.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 02:58 pm
In the box that surrounds the response you want to box-in, there is a button labeled "quote". Click that and it'll paste all the comments into the box you'll be using to reply. If you want to edit the quoted comments (take out the stuff you're not responding to) you can, but you need to make sure you don't delete the code while you're at it.

What I meant by my comment is that I feel the punishing of the bad eggs is like treating the symptom, not the cause of problem.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 03:00 pm
Columbine High School, sight of the infamous event, and in my neighborhood, is one of the most financially supported schools in Colorado. all the best that money can buy. the students drive BMW's and Camero's. the parents are successful. its a lovely neighborhood. the parents are also too busy to notice their sons building bombs in the garage, stockpiling arms and going on killing sprees. but hey, lets blame the schools, the teachers, the police they must be just too lax and tolerant, all those kids need is a good caning to show them the way. if the parents are too busy to be involved they can just give the kids credit cards to show how much they care.
0 Replies
 
ul
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 03:23 pm
"That's like cutting off your toe because it has a blister caused by bad shoes."

"I think it's more like stopping an infection or cutting out a boil."

What about buying the right shoe size?

Caning is the easy way out.
It is better to anticipate mischievious behavior than to punish it.
You need good educators in childcare, day care, schools.
Put money into education of teachers, hire more teachers, make smaller classes- educate future parents.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 03:26 pm
littlek
I believe they are the cause along with parents who just don't give a damn or are unable to cope with their offspring.
Remove that cancer and all the other problems are easily solvable.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 03:41 pm
Well said Ul! That's what I was getting at - buy new shoes!

au1929 - actually, remove the cancer and you will often get a regrowth. And, sometimes you can help prevent certain cancers by eating and dieting well.


<edited for pig-headedness>
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 03:48 pm
a quality education is a right of every child, as long as the current funding is via property taxes/school boards the vageries of neighborhoods will dictate the quality each child receives, that is a fundamental error that must be changed. the problem with behavior is most assuredly related directly to the family and home of the child, when society can recognize that family is IMPORTANT and will support all measures to support every family, black and white, brown and yellow, rich and poor, slum and burb, then we can see the potential of every child rise to their inherent ability and participate in society with responsibility. but alas, we have become a nation of "let them do it" "let the teachers discipline my child, for i am busy" its always someone else's fault. caning? i don't think so, that child will only learn that violence is ok. the beaten child becomes the child beater. just my opinion, i might be wrong.
0 Replies
 
dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:01 pm
I think the diet answer actually hits close to home. If parents are too busy to know if a bomb is being built, are they also too busy to make sure dinner is served? Healthy food=healthy body=healthy mind.
0 Replies
 
dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:03 pm
Has anybody done a study to see if there is a connection of HUNGER with each of these kids who reacted violently? What's the very old saying? "People with full bellies don't go to war"?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:06 pm
ul
I am not sure you quite grasp the enormity of the problem. Many of these "Children" are incorrigible and belong to gangs. Making nice just won't cut it. Neither will a slap on the wrist.
0 Replies
 
ul
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:11 pm
dyslexia,
yes, that is what I think.

"Highly talented youngsters who might give great service to the
State remain in the gloom of ignorance for want of instruction, both in literature and morals’.

We should see the extraordinary importance of education as a means of promoting social and moral development
and of bringing about change.

While believing that punishment was necessary in certain cases, he always preached
moderation, love and kindness as the basis of any discipline. ‘We must punish with great
compassion for that is part of our name and the charity in which believe’ (20 June 1624).21
‘I wish to remind you that punishment should be used with discretion. The children should be
treated with great kindness’ (18 December 1626).22 ‘In punishing the children, be kind rather
than severe’ (10 October 1643).
These are quotations from the founder of the first free public school: JOSEPH CALASANZ (1557–1648)
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:14 pm
littlek
If you had cancer would you ignore because it may recur or would you act to remove or at least arrest it. We have cancer in our schools and treating it with kid gloves won't cure it. Maybe caning would be a little to drastic but drastic measures are certainly inorder. Throwing money at it is not the answer.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:15 pm
dupre, physical hunger does not seem to have been an issue with many of the children. However, a lack of emotional support and parental involvement /discipline is noted in a lot of reports i've read about violent children.

a lot of people tell me i take better care of my dogs than friends or relatives of theirs do of their children. i find that horribly frightening. It most recently came up when i turned down an invitation to an industry event. i don't want to spend too many evenings away from the dogs - i made a personal commitment to the physical and emotional well-being of these animals when i rescued them and brought them into my house. how can people offer less to their children. it truly makes me shake my head.

How are teachers/schools supposed to teach children who need more than an academic education from them?. Children are going to teachers for hugs because they aren't getting them at home. Then the bugbear of 'touching' comes in. I fear for these children, and for us.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:21 pm
au, i think you are wrong to think of the children as incorrigible. with love and support, so much can still be changed. a good friend of mine fosters young men who have been in gangs. honestly, some of them frighten me at age 10 and 11, when she brings them into her home. then after a surprisingly short period of time, they are asking for hugs when i visit and are helping me in the kitchen when they visit me. it is amazing what a difference love and care and discipline can make. by discipline, i do not mean physical punishment, but an understanding of consequences.
0 Replies
 
ul
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2002 04:21 pm
au1929,
I think I know what I am talking about- I have been a teacher for more than 30 years and I have had my share of so called incorrigible "children."
(Personally I don't like the quotation marks, these children are persons. And they all have to be treated with dignity.)
It is and was a struggle to work with them, but this kind of punishment never worked.
0 Replies
 
 

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