death

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.......and wait. Wink

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i understand your position perfectly JLN. In fact it makes sense in some ways. But... is just that you don't remember aything mean it doesn't exist? I had a blue blankey that i was apparently surgically attached to as a baby, but I don't remember it. However, that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Merories are fallable, even memories of something as grand as a pre-life.

However, I'm just keeping the debate lively, i don't disagree with your idea, it has it's merits.

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truth
Monty, I'm just saying that because of a total lack of experiential evidence regarding both before birth and after life, everything people say about them (well, nobody talks about before birth, only after life) is fantasy. At least my admittedly (publically) unverifiable notion of our unity with the Cosmos has some intuitive basis. We can sometimes experience it in this life (a form of private verification).
I am willing to acknowledge the remote possibilities seen in hypnotic regression (re: pre-birth) and near death experiences (re: after-life) reports. But so far they havn't won any confidence in me at all.

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Nor in me. We can fantasize as much as our brain allows us, but until we have any proof that can be verified - scientifically, I'm a sceptic.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Agreed, JLN. People wish to think our life on tihs planet is some kind of transitional experience. The fact is, it starts and ends here.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I must ask: How do you know that it is a FACT that life starts and ends here -- and is not tansitional or something else?

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Show me any different, and I might buy into it.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Unless you believe in Hell, it's all OK.

If there is no after life, there is simply non-existence. Non-existence means there is no longer an "I" to react in any way to the loss of existence.

If there's an after-life...well, it should, at least, be interesting.

[....]

Now if you buy that there is a Hell, it's a whole other story.

This leads an interesting question.

If you had to choose between non-existance or existance in Hell, what would you choose?

I hate the idea of non-existance. I would choose Hell. I am assuming that if it were *I* in hell, I would have to keep my consciousness (my ability to think and to wonder) and my free will. If you take these things away then it is no longer me.

The idea that I will lose my consciousness is worse than any Hell that can be imagined.

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i just realized that there's no point in discussing death because no one for sure knows what happens after death, and as far as I'm concerned, no one ever will

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e-brown

Non-existence can only bother you while you exist. Hell, on the other hand, can bother you quite a lot for quite a long time.

I'd prefer to turn out the lights than turn up the heat.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Show me any different, and I might buy into it.

Not trying to get to you "buy into it", ci, I'm merely calling to your attention that you cannot logically claim something is a "fact" -- when you do not know it to be a fact.

Every indication is that you are guessing "this is it and there ain't nothin' else" -- but you are asserting it to be a "fact."

You make as little sense doing that as the people who assert it is a fact that this is a transitional state -- and that such-and-such happens after we die.

Not trying to start an argument.

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truth
EBrown, your fear of non-existence is the ego's fear of its eradication. This is why I bring up the matter of our pre-birth non-existence. I see no evidence, objective or in my memory, for thinking that that form of "oblivion" was any kind of a problem. I view my after-life non-existence the same.

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Frank, As far as I'm concerned, it's fact to me until proven otherwise. I don't play that "guessing" game about my existence; it's meaningless to me. I have proof of something or I don't; some things are guesses, I'll admit, but they're guesses until science deems it otherwise. For me, god is a total fiction: that's my "fact."

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Death
Death is not unlike most other things we contemplate. We take out of it that which we first put into it : I

In other words, we don't see death the way it is...we see it the way we are.

Thus, if life is precious to you, death can be terrifying. But if your life is a kind of living hell, death can be a kind of salvation, right?

RP

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Randall, I think there's some truth to your thesis, but as generalities, there are too many variables. I think a person in bad health with pain may wish to die early is most cases, but not always. In the same way, althought the majority on this planet live a meager life, they may wish and hope for a better future for themselves and their children. "We are" pretty much covers it.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

EBrown, your fear of non-existence is the ego's fear of its eradication. This is why I bring up the matter of our pre-birth non-existence. I see no evidence, objective or in my memory, for thinking that that form of "oblivion" was any kind of a problem. I view my after-life non-existence the same.

I think my ego's fear of its eradication is completely rational (as my ego has been known to be).

I choose existance with pain over non-existance without pain. I believe this to be a completely logical choice.

My willingness to be "bothered" in hell is consistant with this.

But, one can only hope...

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I can, on reading JL's last post, agree that I too don't fear eradication (except that we differ, I fancy my Self), though I understand the posts about nonself; still, I can be at peace with the idea. I would just like to delay the changes considerably, very much.

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truth
EVERYBODY, even zen masters and yogis, fancy their selves, from the perspective of the self. But they can also see the "self" from the perspective of what zen Buddhists call No-mind and Hindus Atman. This amounts to a state of joy, a freedom from fear of death and all else.

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Sounds more like illegal substances to me. ;-)

But I don't think I have to see myself from any position other than myself to not be afraid of death or dying, or to be joyful. After all, if you don't consider yourself or your life, what is there to be joyful about?

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Amen, rufio; that needs to be the driving principal of our life. Trying to figure out how buddhist priests find nervana is not an option for most of us.

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truth
Rufio, you have every right to live an ego-centered existence. It has its temporary advantages as well as its permanent disadvantages. It is a perfectly "normal" orientation.
C.I., one doesn't have to be a zen buddhist, or live any kind of monastic life, to realize (and enjoy the realization of) your true nature.

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