Why does the Universe exist?

@BeHereNow,

BeHereNow wrote:

Quote:
Can an occurrence exist if there is no one who is conscious of that occurrence?
Yes, put an unconscious tape recorder near that tree and record the sound.

It's the same problem, someone who is conscious needs to listen to the tape. Therefore if there is no conscious person then there is no ability to know anything including if the Universe exists.

Therefore I refer you back to my last post (see below) as you haven't resolved the problem we cannot move on:

igm wrote:

BeHereNow wrote:

It has to be a fact, that is, an actual occurrence.
If it occurs, it is factual, it has existence.

Can an occurrence exist if there is no one who is conscious of that occurrence? If not then you have not yet defined existence because a completely isolated occurrence is impossible to know.... therefore it is impossible to know the Universe exists based on an occurrence.

In the light of what I've said, can you restate the prerequisites that are required for something to be said to be existent.. IYO.

1 Reply

@igm,

Well, to be fair, we only need a conscious mind, a squirrel for example.
No person needed.

Let me see if I understand your position.

We will imagine things are as science supposes, big bang and such.
Science only knows about life on earth, not other planets.
If this is true, and it turns out that there is no other heavenly bodies with conscious life - not that they suggest that - just supposing, then what about existence.

At some moment in time, one of those slimy things, or creepy crawlers, or walks on two legs primates, had a spark of consciousness, self awareness we might say.
When that spark occurred, not a moment before, the universe came into existence.
Have I got it?

You might say, no, there was existence, but there was not awareness of it.
But in that case, existence is not depend on awareness, or consciousness.
So I am back to thinking you believe existence is dependent on consciousness.
This leads to many questions, but I will wait for a reply.

1 Reply

@BeHereNow,

You are moving away from our discussion which is still unresolved:

igm wrote:

BeHereNow wrote:

Quote:
Can an occurrence exist if there is no one who is conscious of that occurrence?
Yes, put an unconscious tape recorder near that tree and record the sound.

It's the same problem, someone who is conscious needs to listen to the tape. Therefore if there is no conscious person then there is no ability to know anything including if the Universe exists.

Are you saying in our discussion above that you are correct and I am wrong and if so why am I wrong?

If you are saying you are wrong but still believe you have a case then say so and state your new case in the light of my successful rebuttal.

2 Replies

@igm,

BHN
You could say instead, 'I assume the Universe exists but I don't know that it exists'.

I have no argument for those who are not asserting a view but just going with what allows them to do whatever it is they want to do once they've made the assumption... such as science etc...

But IMO you can't then ask why it exists because that should be based on knowing it exists not assuming it exists.

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@igm,

BHN
I've posted twice, please read both posts above.

1 Reply

@igm,

You seem to be beating around the bush.
I said I was willing to accept evidence and such based on your belief system.
You do not indicate if this is necessary or not.
If it is, it is helpful to have insight into your beliefs.
If it is not, then my rules.
You do not want to give me insight into your rules, so....
Yours or mine which? I will assume mine.

I say existence is not dependent on consciousness. You disagree, suggesting a difference in belief systems.
I offer to use your rules, by silence you decline.
So by my rules, you are trying to convince me.....beats me?

If there are thoughts, real or imagined, my own or those of another entity, those thoughts or masquerades of thoughts, have an imperative of consciousness.
Surely you are not saying consciousness MUST require a human mind - yet that is the implication.
So my rules say conscious does not require a human mind.
Existence does not require a human mind.
There are thoughts, (real or imagined, etc.) they demand a consciousness, so you are not correct.
Your rebuttal was not successful.

You are wrong, because I have shown, by my rules, there is some existence as demonstrated by thoughts (real or imagined, etc.) and that is the universe.
If you want your rules, your belief system, respond to my concerns.
No existence or any rock, planet, molecule, until some life form had a spark of consciousness, is bizarre, as I see it.

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

You could say instead, 'I assume the Universe exists but I don't know that it exists'.

I know it exists as I have explained.
The exact nature, form, components, I assume.

0 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

BHN
I've posted twice, please read both posts above.

So, a fourteen minute rule on responses, sorry, I was not informed.

1 Reply

igm
The clock is ticking.

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igm

BUZZZZZZZZZ

Time up, I'll check back later.

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@BeHereNow,

BeHereNow wrote:

igm wrote:

BHN
I've posted twice, please read both posts above.

So, a fourteen minute rule on responses, sorry, I was not informed.

No, again you misunderstand my post. I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my first post because I'd unusually posted not one but two posts, one after the other.

I'll look at you have said and what you are now saying and get back to you...

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@BeHereNow,

BeHereNow wrote:

I say existence is not dependent on consciousness.

Is the Universe a subject or an object, neither or both?

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@TuringEquivalent,

Are the two questions not the same? "Why is there a universe" and "why does this universe exist?" That's basically asking the same question. Can someone please explain the difference.

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@TuringEquivalent,

Quote:

Why does the Universe exist?

Quiv that's the basic q, isn't it, and can't help often wondering why discussed so little

Quote:

First, why is there a Universe at all?

Honest to God, that's the main thing isn't it Quiv. Lacking any other input save religious, I'd respond by asserting that things are the way they are because that's the way they have to be; somehow the absence of a Universe, eg nothingness, is impossible because it entails contradiction and paradox

Quote:

…. that nothing ever existed….. about this possibility…... astonishing that anything exists.

Amen. To avoid paradox etc I can only guess that the Universe has always existed in one form or another

Quote:

….. Things might have been, in countless ways, different. So why is the Universe as it is?

Further study will eventually reveal it's because any other way is impossible

Understand, that doesn't mean there's no God. However, the dualism leading to the atheist v believer controversy will be shown to be simply a semantic affair

Oops am I repeating myself

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returning to the original question...to **** with me

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@TuringEquivalent,

Questions like this really have no end. Ignorance is the only source of happiness we can be content with, so why try and destroy it with meaningless questions. It's not like asking will change anything. Let's just say the Universe exists because you exist. An individual's ability to realize that their existence is real comes from thought. "I think therefore i am" explains it clearly. The Universe exists because i made it exist; not trying to sound conceited but i believe every human should look out for number one.

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@nunezp001,

Nope.

I exist therefore I think.

And about the question of this topic, whatever the reason was for this universe to become into existence, it is made huge, solitary and imperfect. And we, humans, are isolated, insignificant and extremely curious.

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

I think I'm in agreement with you here - to quote Bertrand Russell, 'I should say that the universe is just there, and that is all'.

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@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

Why does the Universe exist? There are two questions here.
First, why is there a Universe at all? It might have been true
that nothing ever existed: no living beings, no stars, no atoms,
not even space or time. When we think about this possibility,
it can seem astonishing that anything exists. Second, why does
this Universe exist? Things might have been, in countless
ways, different. So why is the Universe as it is?

I think the question itself is basically examined wrong. For example if you were never born, would you even be aware that there is a universe at all? It seems to be that only we are concerned about this question because we are aware of it. In other words the universe exists because you are aware of it. I think it comes down to potentiality rather than reality. Because can you exist without a universe first existing? The answer is, I don't know..

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@nunezp001,

Quote:

so why try and destroy it with meaningless questions

Not at all meaningless Nun. It might responded, as I probably have done above, that things are the way they are because any other way would entail paradox or contradiction, an avenue seldom explored and needing attention. Presently it can only be guessed in this connection that She, It, exists 'cause It hasta

Yes, no, not much help am I. Yet you'll note my prop entail no ambiguities, with the notion of creation dispatched by the simple assertion that She has existed forever

1 Reply

Why does the Universe exist?

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