'One-State' Idea Gains Support Of Some Palestinians

Oralloy, I don't accept that one inscription in a stone is evidence that someone had a meaningful conversation with shrubbery.

Since Egypt was the powerful empire of the time and had both trade and conquest, there is a simple explanation that they made have known about the gods of many cultures.

But let me pretend for a moment that I accept the historical accuracy of the Bible. How would that affect the discussion.

In the Book of Joshua, the Israelites invade Canaan. A land that is clearly inhabited at the time (according to the Bible).

God orders that these people be slaughtered including women and children and livestock. Joshua fails to do completely murder them all, and in the book of Judges these inhabitants remain "to test" them.

So accepting your mythology makes it even worse. The Palestinians were in the land when Israel invaded (in a pretty barbaric way). They were there first.

I think the scientific view, where modern Israelis and Palestinians both descend from the original Canaanites.

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.

That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.

Old writings have no value to archaeology?

I guess there is no science to be learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs either?

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.

The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?

The Bible claims that the conversation with the Burning Bush took place in a very specific place (in the land of the Shasu).

Archaeology proves that there was a local deity named YHW in that exact specific place, and nowhere else (until the Israelites popped up well to the north).

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.

According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?

The fact that you want to label ancient writings as "mythology" does not mean they have no archaeological value.

What is your alternative scenario?

That the Egyptians had some magical means to prevent any slaves from ever escaping?

That when the Bronze Age ended, the Israelites suddenly migrated down to visit the Shasu and converted to their religion, then re-migrated back home?

But then they decided that no one must ever know of this migration, so they crafted a cover story of escaped slaves passing through the lands of the Shasu?

Seems more reasonable that a group of escaped slaves passed through the area and converted, and then their new religion proved to be a big hit once they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.

That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.

Old writings have no value to archaeology?

I guess there is no science to be learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs either?

If old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs conform to science then they're scientific.

There are a lot of misrepresentations, redactions, etc. in the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as well.

Old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs must conform to science. Trying to conform science to old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs is what theists attempt to do when trying to prove the historicity of the Bible.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.

The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?

The Bible claims that the conversation with the Burning Bush took place in a very specific place (in the land of the Shasu).

Archaeology proves that there was a local deity named YHW in that exact specific place, and nowhere else (until the Israelites popped up well to the north).

There were various groups of Shasu that are referred to at a temple from the time of Amenhotep III who were listed as enemies of the state. One was the Shasu of YHW.

There is no mention of an exodus of Israelite slaves out of Egypt, however.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:

All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.

According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?

The fact that you want to label ancient writings as "mythology" does not mean they have no archaeological value.

So then, where's the archaeological evidence for an Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt?

oralloy wrote:

What is your alternative scenario?

There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

oralloy wrote:

That the Egyptians had some magical means to prevent any slaves from ever escaping?

There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

oralloy wrote:

That when the Bronze Age ended, the Israelites suddenly migrated down to visit the Shasu and converted to their religion, then re-migrated back home?

But then they decided that no one must ever know of this migration, so they crafted a cover story of escaped slaves passing through the lands of the Shasu?

Apparently, if the Shasu of YHW refers to a YHWH cult of the Levant, then that cult had been there since at least those times.

With that said, there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

oralloy wrote:

Seems more reasonable that a group of escaped slaves passed through the area and converted, and then their new religion proved to be a big hit once they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.

Uh, no.

What's more reasonable is that there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt. Instead the latter Bible redactors (i.e. the Deuteronomist) recycled an ancient Canaanite origin myth from the earlier times to fit their religious, political and social agenda: the promotion of the YHWH cult to exclusivity during the time of the repopulation of Jerusalem.

In the first part of January the media began breaking the news that the old yarn about slaves having built the pyramids had finally been dispelled. Dr. Zahi Hawass of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities announced that three large tombs had been newly discovered very close to the pyramid itself. As the final resting place of some of the overseers of the workforce, both the structure and location of the tombs made it clear that these were no slaves.

Dr. Hawass’ statement that “These tombs were built beside the king’s pyramid, which indicates that these people were not by any means slaves” (source) was widely repeated in the press under headlines announcing that the belief that slaves had built the pyramids could now be retired. But Egyptologists have long known that the Slave Hypothesis was pure Hollywood.

O-kay.

Oralboy just talks nonsense.

Quote:

In the first part of January the media began breaking the news that the old yarn about slaves having built the pyramids had finally been dispelled. Dr. Zahi Hawass of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities announced that three large tombs had been newly discovered very close to the pyramid itself. As the final resting place of some of the overseers of the workforce, both the structure and location of the tombs made it clear that these were no slaves.

Dr. Hawass’ statement that “These tombs were built beside the king’s pyramid, which indicates that these people were not by any means slaves” (source) was widely repeated in the press under headlines announcing that the belief that slaves had built the pyramids could now be retired. But Egyptologists have long known that the Slave Hypothesis was pure Hollywood.

http://emhotep.net/2010/02/09/locations/lower-egypt/giza-plateau-lower-egypt/who-built-the-pyramids-part-1-the-lost-city-of-the-pyramid-builders/

Terry Jones, (not the bigot, but he of Monty Python fame) has produced a very informative documentary about this. He finds some old papyrus records, and one of the workers took a day off to brew beer, hardly the actions of a slave.

InfraBlue wrote:

O-kay.

So you have no explanation as to how your extreme claims could even work.

I guess that was inevitable, given that you were arguing against science and archaeology from the start.

Next time maybe consider siding with the scientists. It'll work out better for you.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

O-kay.

So you have no explanation as to how your extreme claims could even work.

What's extreme is trying to defend a needless exodus from Egypt to establish a cult that had already existed in Canaan.

oralloy wrote:

I guess that was inevitable, given that you were arguing against science and archaeology from the start.

Next time maybe consider siding with the scientists. It'll work out better for you.

The science and archaeology indicates that there was no slave exodus from Egypt

your ridiculous assertions notwithstanding.

The cult did not already exist in Canaan.

Egyptian records make it clear that YHW was a local deity in the land of the Shasu, and nowhere else.

And you've so far offered no alternative explanation as to how that local religion suddenly jumped way to the north to be worshiped by a completely unrelated people, despite repeated requests for your alternative scenario.

Shasu (Š3sw, probably pronounced Shaswe) is an Egyptian word for semitic-speaking pastoral cattle nomads who appeared in the Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were organized in clans under a tribal chieftain, and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon and the Sinai.[emphasis mine]

Science and archaeology strongly indicate a scenario where some slaves escaped from Egypt, converted to a new religion on their way home, and their new religion was a big hit when they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.

The Bible says the Israelites leave Egypt in a mass migration, 600,000 men and their families, and then wander in the desert for 40 years. But even assuming the Bible is exaggerating, in a hundred years of searching, archaeologists have not yet found evidence of migration that can be linked to the Exodus.

oralloy" wrote:

The cult did not already exist in Canaan.

Egyptian records make it clear that YHW was a local deity in the land of the Shasu, and nowhere else.

And you've so far offered no alternative explanation as to how that local religion suddenly jumped way to the north to be worshiped by a completely unrelated people, despite repeated requests for your alternative scenario.

You need to read your own references, oralloy.

From your very own reference:

Quote:

Shasu (Š3sw, probably pronounced Shaswe) is an Egyptian word for semitic-speaking pastoral cattle nomads who appeared in the Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were organized in clans under a tribal chieftain, and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon and the Sinai.[emphasis mine]

This is the general area that the Canaanites inhabited.

These pastoral nomads roamed the entire area of the Levant. There was no need to go to Egypt to establish their cult in the Levant.

oralloy" wrote:

Science and archaeology strongly indicate a scenario where some slaves escaped from Egypt, converted to a new religion on their way home, and their new religion was a big hit when they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.

You know, you're contradicting your own reference E:\NOVA The Bible's Buried Secrets transcript.mht:

Quote:

The Bible says the Israelites leave Egypt in a mass migration, 600,000 men and their families, and then wander in the desert for 40 years. But even assuming the Bible is exaggerating, in a hundred years of searching, archaeologists have not yet found evidence of migration that can be linked to the Exodus.

So, where's this contradictory reference for your assertions?

a one-state solution is coming - an Islamic one.

Untill the Pals can get some real military hardware over the next 200 years and pay Israel back. Racial memory is long.