WashPost Editor calls Keystone rejection an insane act

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rejecting-the-keystone-pipeline-is-an-act-of-insanity/2012/01/19/gIQAowG6AQ_story.html

Quote:

By Robert J. Samuelson, Thursday, January 19, 12:39 PM

President Obama’s rejection of the Keystone XL pipeline from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico is an act of national insanity. It isn’t often that a president makes a decision that has no redeeming virtues and — beyond the symbolism — won’t even advance the goals of the groups that demanded it. All it tells us is that Obama is so obsessed with his reelection that, through some sort of political calculus, he believes that placating his environmental supporters will improve his chances.

Aside from the political and public relations victory, environmentalists won’t get much. Stopping the pipeline won’t halt the development of tar sands, to which the Canadian government is committed; therefore, there will be little effect on global-warming emissions. Indeed, Obama’s decision might add to them. If Canada builds a pipeline from Alberta to the Pacific for export to Asia, moving all that oil across the ocean by tanker will create extra emissions. There will also be the risk of added spills.....

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Type: Discussion • Score: 9 • Views: 11,269 • Replies: 120

Quote:

It isn’t often that a president makes a decision that has no redeeming virtues...

0 Replies

@gungasnake,

President Obama did not reject the pipeline. He rejected the arbitrary and fast-tracked deadline for decision imposed by Congress in lieu of a more thorough study of the pipeline proposal.

The pipeline project is still under consideration by the administration and is being resubmitted by the authors.

2 Replies

@Butrflynet,

This has really pissed us off. Why should we ship our product to the States so you can refine it, take our jobss and then charge us more for our product, when it seems the US is ungrateful.
A lot of people up here are now reconsidering the plan as well. Refine the oil here and sell it to Asia. The US be damned...

1 Reply

@Butrflynet,

You are exactly right, Butrflynet.

And it was the GOP who wanted it approved without the needed study.

Joe(please ... this was a no-brainer)Nation

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

This has really pissed us off. Why should we ship our product to the States so you can refine it, take our jobss and then charge us more for our product, when it seems the US is ungrateful.
A lot of people up here are now reconsidering the plan as well. Refine the oil here and sell it to Asia. The US be damned...

Ungrateful?

Tar Sands oil is the absolute worst to mine and refine. It's an environmental disaster. Thanks for ******* up the planet for everyone, so you can make some money, we really appreciate that.

Not only that, but this current project doesn't keep Canada from shipping the oil to the US all it wants. It merely puts more money in the pockets of some very wealthy people who want to sell this oil on the international market, via the gulf coast.

Re: refining the oil yourself, I grew up in Houston, the biggest oil refining town you can think of. It's a nasty and pollution-ridden process - every single day of my youth, I was greeted with strong chemical odors emanating from our giant refining facilities upwind of the city. I highly doubt you want to be doing this anywhere near where YOU live.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Joe Nation,

Quote:

And it was the GOP who wanted it approved without the needed study.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg9F5l0DudKlV9Lf1PjmE2WjTvkVUwrNqSqgnxM8aSrSsY0lAlQg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-2mOxrad9iyQMvfsdJdol7hZCa4tyTLnS430Rb86oFjsMG8PWJw

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeo-4mGAXDwXxqsi5pvtfuTG12k-Tnns6bpTmosPefULPfDwXO

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Tar Sands oil is the absolute worst to mine and refine. It's an environmental disaster. Thanks for ******* up the planet for everyone...

Case in point, this [cycklochunk] is Bork Obunga's constituency. Everybody needs to remember this **** next November while they're using what little $5/gallon gasoline they can spare for it to get to the polls...

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

My bicycle takes no gasoline whatsoever, so I could give a ****. I have zero pity for those of you who are too wedded to convenience or laziness to change your way of life, or who would seek to ignore the environmental cost of your transportation.

By the way, you're an idiot. I can't remember if I've told you that lately. You have no knowledge whatsoever about any topic you post about here at A2K, at least as it relates to politics and economics.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I support the killing of the pipeline, but...

a bicycle is a tough sell out here on the prairie.

it is 30 degrees, and I am 20 miles from town...

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

I support the killing of the pipeline, but...

a bicycle is a tough sell out here on the prairie.

it is 30 degrees, and I am 20 miles from town...

Okay, I get that. But there needs to be an understanding on the part of people who drive that the true cost of their transportation is far higher than what they pay at the pump; and the rest of us can't choose not to pay those costs.

So, yes - gasoline should be more expensive than it currently is, to reflect the actual cost of cleaning up the pollution created by mining oil and refining it.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

Robert J. Samuelson
Opinion Writer

Robert Samuelson writes a weekly economics column that usually runs in The Post on Mondays. He was a columnist for Newsweek magazine from 1984 to 2011. He began his journalism career as a reporter on The Post business desk, from 1969 to 1973. He was an economics reporter and columnist for National Journal magazine from 1976 to 1984 — when he joined Newsweek. Samuelson is the author of “The Great Inflation and Its Aftermath: The Past and Future of American Affluence” (2008) and “The Good Life and Its Discontents” (1995). He grew up in White Plains, N.Y. and attended Harvard College. He lives in Bethesda with his wife and their three children.

Columnist

Editor

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@Cycloptichorn,

You just wrote your diatribe on a computer, made from petroleum products. Your vehicle, bicycle, pens, shoes, clothing, food containers and home is all made in part from petroleum products.
Try and live your life without these products, go for it, I dare you.
Impossible, unless, after you fly to the Himalaya `s and become a monk and you forgo all man made products.
Ungrateful, yes...
As far as many people here are concerned, this oil should be refined here, not offered to people who besmirch this whole system.
We didn`t drown the Gulf Coast in oil, or crash the valdez, or chop mountains down for coal. Yes, the oil sands are gross, but they are working on making it much cleaner, but much of the oil slated to flow through the pipes would not just be coming from the tar sands. If you knew anything about this area, you`d know that oil also is drilled by conventional means, in huge quantities as well.
I love that you want to blame us for ******* up the world. Beautiful. We dig because you buy... Nothing about Oil is clean, doesn`t matter where it`s processed. As if Texas is lily white. lol...
You don`t want it, we will dig for others. Simple.
Jobs can stay here, the profits can stay here. You can buy from Iran or Saudi Arabia. Or from Venezuelan tar sands. It`s all good.
I live in Edmonton. Trust me, there are a ton of refineries here, in this city, in the surrounding communities, in this province and in the next province.
I live 400 kms from Ft. Mac. Next...
What were YOU saying again.

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

... It's a nasty and pollution-ridden process - every single day of my youth, I was greeted with strong chemical odors emanating from our giant refining facilities ...

I assume you must prefer the smell of burn't human flesh, or hadn't you noticed that money we send to islamist countries for oil has been coming back to us in the form of airplanes flying into our tall buildings recently??

0 Replies

@Ceili,

I am not anti oil. or anti-Canajun.

I am all about not running a giant pipe full of oil across my drinking water and trusting clowns to keep them separate...

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

I absolutely agree. Oil and water don't mix. The original path was lazily planned out.

0 Replies

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

You just wrote your diatribe on a computer, made from petroleum products. Your vehicle, bicycle, pens, shoes, clothing, food containers and home is all made in part from petroleum products.
Try and live your life without these products, go for it, I dare you.

It's impossible to, in our modern society. But, this doesn't mean that we can't try to lessen our usage of it; which is exactly what I do. By my reckoning, I use less oil than 95% of Americans.

Quote:

As far as many people here are concerned, this oil should be refined here, not offered to people who besmirch this whole system.

The 'whole system' is incredibly pollutive, it deserves to be besmirched. Or do you just wish to ignore the inconvenient part of the equation? You can't ignore it, and what's worse, neither can I, no matter what choices I make personally. It's not like my choosing not to drive a car means that the rest of the country is going to stop; and I'm forced to deal with their pollution whether I like it or not.

Quote:

Yes, the oil sands are gross, but they are working on making it much cleaner,

Bullshit - like so-called 'clean coal,' this is a joke. You can't make it 'much cleaner' without absolutely destroying the economic viability of the entire enterprise.

Quote:

but much of the oil slated to flow through the pipes would not just be coming from the tar sands. If you knew anything about this area, you`d know that oil also is drilled by conventional means, in huge quantities as well.

You don`t want it, we will dig for others. Simple.

Oil is a fungible commodity, sold on the international market. It doesn't matter WHO you dig it for. Do you not understand that the oil supposedly going to be carried by this Keystone XL pipeline is SLATED FOR FOREIGN EXPORT ALREADY?? It will make no difference to US drivers if you sell it to china or ship it down here for US to sell to China. It will not lower prices here one whit.

Quote:

Jobs can stay here, the profits can stay here. You can buy from Iran or Saudi Arabia. Or from Venezuelan tar sands. It`s all good.
I live in Edmonton. Trust me, there are a ton of refineries here, in this city, in the surrounding communities, in this province and in the next province.
I live 400 kms from Ft. Mac. Next...
What were YOU saying again.

I was saying that you give far more of a **** about money and profits than you do the environmental damage caused by generating them. I can't respect that attitude; it is short-sighted and foolish. I'm not sad in the slightest that some are refusing to take part in your dirty work.

If there are so many refineries in your cities, why the hell are you shipping the oil to OUR refineries in the first place? I'm forced to conclude that the refineries in your cities aren't exactly extensive, when compared to the ones that I've been around my whole life.

Actually, now that you mention it, refining the oil elsewhere (in China or in Canada) does mean less localized pollution on the Gulf Coast, so hey - go sell it to someone who doesn't give a **** about the place they live in, fine with me.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

The funny thing is just a few years ago we were running our refineries at full capacity and could barely keep up with US demand. Now without building new refineries we want to make products to export.

I heard some idiot from the oil industry this morning, and he was truly an idiot, talking about how the US produces 60% of it's oil domestically so we need this pipeline. I don't know if that's true but only a few years ago we were importing over 60%.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Do you ride your bicycle on gravel roads, sprayed with oil to keep the dust down, or do you ride them on asphalt? Even if you rode them on concrete, they'd have been built with vehicles that run on oil products. So, basically, the rest of the 95% are subsidizing your "clean" lifestyle. They pay the taxes that build the roads you ride on and ship your food over and other goods you buy. They subsidized the container ships and the docks that bring in the products you buy. You live a clean lifestyle while the rest of dirty, dirty people make your "clean" lifestyle possible.
Imagine if you really had to be self sufficient without the oil industry. Or any industry. Are you capable of growing your own food? Or storing it with out petroleum made electricity?
How many solar panels do you own, or use? where does the toilet paper you use come from, how is it made?
If you think, you're saving the planet by not driving... Congratulations hero. Be honest enough to admit the rest of the stuff in your life is trucked, shipped, stored and made using oil.
You say bullshit, that the oil industry is trying to get clean. So, in your mind it is what it is, there is no room or possible way to improve.
Do you honestly believe it's the same industry you grew up breathing in? I don't think it's clean, just a lot cleaner than when I grew up and it is improving. There are very clear guidelines of what is expected in the next few years as well.
I don't know where you live now, but the rest of us who don't live in Shangri-la, need to make a living. The pipeline, was to be built so people could have jobs, on both sides of the border. If the end product ends up in China, so be it... It would have made a difference to drivers in Texas, as they then could afford to drive a damn car and or pay for groceries. Instead of lining up at the food bank...
The only difference, is that we only make money off the initial product, you would have made far more off the end product. See, we tend to sell a lot of our products to you in the raw form, and you sell it back to us or whoever as the finished product.
We have plenty of refineries, they are quite extensive. Keep shooting off your mouth about something you know very little about. We would have built more refineries, this deal was in the works so that Americans could have jobs. You got the first kick at the can, but then ya'll kicked us down. See the problem is, we have all the resources, plenty of room to expand but lack the population. We would have import more people to do the work, while you've got plenty looking for work you just need to import the work.
As for the environment. I think it's rich you telling me what I believe in. Believe me, we are very concerned and very much on top of the problem. It's an issue that is very important to everyone living here. I ride a bike too, but I'm not holier than thou about... and this is an issue my kids and grandkids will have to deal with, if we don't get it right. At the same time, that dirty stuff pays for a roof over my head, and heats my house and at the moment it`s -40. Thank-you very much.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Do you ride your bicycle on gravel roads, sprayed with oil to keep the dust down, or do you ride them on asphalt? Even if you rode them on concrete, they'd have been built with vehicles that run on oil products.

Uh, yes, do you think you are somehow cluing me in to how roads are produced? Rolling Eyes

I have no control over this whatsoever and it won't change no matter what I do.

Quote:

So, basically, the rest of the 95% are subsidizing your "clean" lifestyle. They pay the taxes that build the roads you ride on and ship your food over and other goods you buy.

Wrong - road production is not based solely on gasoline taxes. If only it were!

Quote:

They subsidized the container ships and the docks that bring in the products you buy. You live a clean lifestyle while the rest of dirty, dirty people make your "clean" lifestyle possible.

I buy everything that I possibly can from sources that are as close to my home as I can possibly and reasonably afford. Sure, I can't get a DVD player made in California; but the vast, vast majority of the food I buy does in fact come from less than a hundred miles from my house. Many of my vegetables come from my yard, my eggs come from a source two miles away and the guy who delivers them rides, you guessed it, a bicycle.

So, I can't agree with what you've written above. I cannot change the way the world works and I can't reasonably live in the hills as a hermit; I can, however, reduce my usage of pollutants and fossil fuels as much as possible, which is what I have done. I feel perfectly comfortable saying that I use less of these negative things than most people do, because I have taken steps to do so.

Quote:

Imagine if you really had to be self sufficient without the oil industry. Or any industry. Are you capable of growing your own food?

I grow quite a bit of my food.

Quote:

Or storing it with out petroleum made electricity?

Ever heard of a jar? Jeez, I feel like you're intentionally being obtuse.

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How many solar panels do you own, or use? where does the toilet paper you use come from, how is it made?

I rent a house, so I don't own any solar panels. But we use almost no electricity as it is - we have no central air conditioning and don't use appliances that use a lot of energy. We spend extra money to buy things that use less energy.

My toilet paper is recycled. I pay extra money for it, and it's scratchy on my ass. Happy?

Quote:

If you think, you're saving the planet by not driving... Congratulations hero. Be honest enough to admit the rest of the stuff in your life is trucked, shipped, stored and made using oil.

You're simply incorrect. This is probably because you don't have any frame of reference to understand why or how other people would take steps to reduce their usage of fossil fuels.

I'm also not claiming that I am 'saving the planet' by not driving. I don't drive, and use as little fossil fuels as reasonably possible, for two reasons:

1, it's the right thing to do.
2, it's not hard to do.

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You say bullshit, that the oil industry is trying to get clean. So, in your mind it is what it is, there is no room or possible way to improve.

Show me the evidence that they are doing so, and the results. I'll wait.

Quote:

I don't know where you live now, but the rest of us who don't live in Shangri-la, need to make a living. The pipeline, was to be built so people could have jobs, on both sides of the border.

Bull ****! You are totally and completely wrong. The pipeline is NOT being built 'so that people could have jobs.' It is being built so that some rich folks who control oil companies can have money. The jobs are a side effect and if the owners of these companies could figure out how to get rid of those jobs, they would. If they can figure out a way to cut corners to save money - they will. I say this with confidence as this is exactly what they have done time and time again.

The idea that this is a jobs issue is a sad joke. You've bought into stupid propaganda.

Quote:

If the end product ends up in China, so be it... It would have made a difference to drivers in Texas, as they then could afford to drive a damn car and or pay for groceries. Instead of lining up at the food bank...

You're totally wrong. The pipeline will not lower the price of gasoline one single cent for drivers in Texas. Can you provide any evidence at all that it would?

Quote:

As for the environment. I think it's rich you telling me what I believe in. Believe me, we are very concerned and very much on top of the problem. It's an issue that is very important to everyone living here.

Oh, you believe in it and are very concerned with it, but just don't give a **** about things that actually negatively harm it? You are for those things, even though they are EXTREMELY bad for the environment? Tar Sand oil extraction is, by a long shot, the worst fuel extraction for the environment possible. The oil that comes out is terrible stuff, it makes Light Sweet crude look like a renewable resource! I simply don't understand the cognitive dissonance that allows you to claim you are concerned about these things while simultaneously promoting the same things as much as possible.

Quote:

I ride a bike too, but I'm not holier than thou about... and this is an issue my kids and grandkids will have to deal with, if we don't get it right. At the same time, that dirty stuff pays for a roof over my head, and heats my house and at the moment it`s -40. Thank-you very much.

I think I just figured out why you don't have enough human capital in Canada.

Look, you're allowed to have whatever opinion you like on this matter, but you're simply wrong on the facts in several ways (regarding the steps I take in my personal life to lower my pollution load, the fact that it will not lower prices for gasoline in America one whit, and the environmental damage caused by the pipeline), and I can't take your castigating attitude seriously in the face of that. The fact is that nothing in this deal will help American drivers one bit, and it is extremely destructive to the environment. I am not sad in the slightest that we refuse to sign on to it; you want to sell the oil to China, fine, do it.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

WashPost Editor calls Keystone rejection an insane act

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