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Do you agree with Obama's decision to start killing more people? Then why do you support him?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 12:31 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
The Taliban, with Pakistani backing, would be back in power instantly. How long before another 9/11?


You are absolutely nuts, Merry. The Taliban, a creation of the USA, was not responsible for 9-11.

The question you should be asking is,

How long before another Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Laos, Cambodia, Korea, Chile, El Salvador, Grenada, Panama?


What in heaven's name is wrong with your head, Merry?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 12:34 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Jesus! When you go on a crusade you don't pull any punches with your headlines, do you, Robert? That's a bit over the top, don'cha think?


Yeah, Merry, only in your deluded world is the truth is over the top. Rolling Eyes



0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 12:42 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Given the financial situation I'm in right now, there is nothig more important to me than improving the economy, Robert. But that's me; that's a selfish viewpoint.


Americans, worried about themselves. Perish the thought, Merry.

I'm sure that all Americans thoughts are with the Iraqi and Afghan peoples.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 12:50 pm
@parados,
I started reading this thread, only got a little way in and I predicted that the paradosian, rogerian, merrian, crap would soon blossom. End of page one and the crap is flowing full.

What is this monumental problem that you guys have when it comes to dealing with the truth?

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:02 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Ideally, I think there are a few things that should happen to strengthen the war powers act and give congress a better leash on foreign military actions.


An admission that you have rogue presidents invading sovereign nations. Thank you, Art.

Quote:
3) Similar to (1), create a "kill or capture" warrant for non-state actors. This way, if a person was to be assassinated, the public would know that it was the explicit objective to assassinate them.


That would include all the terrorists that reside in the US. Cuba can assassinate all the US government funded terrorists, all the CIA terrorists operating around the world.

Quote:
If we're going to engage in war,


Stop lying, Art! You know that these are not wars! Why do you perpetuate these lies?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Why don't you comment on your inane, and completely delusional notion that the US isn't a terrorist nation?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:09 pm
@parados,
Quote:
But, I find it interesting that at the same time you accuse Obama of being a rampant killer the GOP is arguing that he isn't strong enough and is an appeaser.


What I find interesting, Parados, though hardly surprising, is how quickly you throw up any old smoke screen to provide cover for war criminals and terrorists.

Quote:
Here are five reasons why these drone assassinations are illegal.

One. Assassination by the US government has been illegal since 1976

Drone killings are acts of premeditated murder. Premeditated murder is a crime in all fifty states and under federal criminal law. These murders are also the textbook definition of assassination, which is murder by sudden or secret attack for political reasons.

In 1976 U.S. President Gerald Ford issued Executive Order 11905, Section 5(g), which states "No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination." President Reagan followed up to make the ban clearer in Executive Order 12333. Section 2.11 of that Order states "No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination." Section 2.12 further says "Indirect participation. No agency of the Intelligence Community shall participate in or request any person to undertake activities forbidden by this Order." This ban on assassination still stands.

The reason for the ban on assassinations was that the CIA was involved in attempts to assassinate national leaders opposed by the US. Among others, US forces sought to kill Fidel Castro of Cuba, Patrice Lumumba of the Congo, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, and Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam.

Two. United Nations report directly questions the legality of US drone killings

The UN directly questioned the legality of US drone killings in a May 2010 report by NYU law professor Philip Alston. Alston, the UN special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions, said drone killings may be lawful in the context of authorized armed conflict (eg Afghanistan where the US sought and received international approval to invade and wage war on another country). However, the use of drones “far from the battle zone” is highly questionable legally. “Outside the context of armed conflict, the use of drones for targeted killing is almost never likely to be legal.” Can drone killings be justified as anticipatory self-defense? “Applying such a scenario to targeted killings threatens to eviscerate the human rights law prohibition against arbitrary deprivation of life.” Likewise, countries which engage in such killings must provide transparency and accountability, which no country has done. “The refusal by States who conduct targeted killings to provide transparency about their policies violates the international law framework that limits the unlawful use of lethal force against individuals.”

Three. International law experts condemn US drone killings

Richard Falk, professor emeritus of international affairs and politics at Princeton University thinks the widespread killing of civilians in drone strikes may well constitute war crimes. “There are two fundamental concerns. One is embarking on this sort of automated warfare in ways that further dehumanize the process of armed conflict in ways that I think have disturbing implications for the future,” Falk said. “Related to that are the concerns I’ve had recently with my preoccupation with the occupation of Gaza of a one-sided warfare where the high-tech side decides how to inflict pain and suffering on the other side that is, essentially, helpless.”

Human rights groups in Pakistan challenge the legality of US drone strikes there and assert that Pakistan can prosecute military and civilians involved for murder.

While stopping short of direct condemnation, international law expert Notre Dame Professor Mary Ellen O’Connell seriously questions the legality of drone attacks in Pakistan. In powerful testimony before Congress and in an article in America magazine she points out that under the charter of the United Nations, international law authorizes nations to kill people in other countries only in self-defense to an armed attack, if authorized by the UN, or is assisting another country in their lawful use of force. Outside of war, she writes, the full body of human rights applies, including the prohibition on killing without warning. Because the US is not at war with Pakistan, using the justification of war to authorize the killings is “to violate fundamental human rights principles.”

Four. Military law of war does not authorize widespread drone killing of civilians

According to the current US Military Law of War Deskbook, the law of war allows killing only when consistent with four key principles: military necessity, distinction, proportionality, and humanity. These principles preclude both direct targeting of civilians and medical personnel but also set out how much “incidental” loss of civilian life is allowed. Some argue precision-guided weapons like drones can be used only when there is no probable cause of civilian deaths. But the US military disputes that burden and instead directs “all practicable precautions” be taken to weigh the anticipated loss of civilian life against the advantages expected to be gained by the strike.

Even using the more lenient standard, there is little legal justification of deliberately allowing the killing of civilians who are “incidental” to the killings of people whose identities are unknown.

Five. Retired high-ranking military and CIA veterans challenge the legality and efficacy of drone killings

Retired US Army Colonel Ann Wright squarely denies the legality of drone warfare, telling Democracy Now: “These drones, you might as well just call them assassination machines. That is what these drones are used for: targeted assassination, extrajudicial ultimate death for people who have not been convicted of anything.”

Drone strikes are also counterproductive. Robert Grenier, recently retired Director of the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center, wrote, “One wonders how many Yemenis may be moved in the future to violent extremism in reaction to carelessly targeted missile strikes, and how many Yemeni militants with strictly local agendas will become dedicated enemies of the West in response to US military actions against them.”

Recent polls of the Pakistan people show high levels of anger in Pakistan at US military attacks there. This anger in turn leads to high support for suicide attacks against US military targets.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31330.htm
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:10 pm
JTT's off her meds again this morning, I see.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I think we knew that we were in trouble when we sent our military to kidnap Noriega in Operation Nifty Package....we as early as 1989 did not respect national borders nor what had been to that point the customary standards of international law.


Jesus, Hawk, pick up a history book, why doncha? The USA has NEVER respected national boundaries.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:26 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
I have virtually no complaints about American military tactics these days,


I venture to say that that is a badly misplaced trust, Robert. History simply won't support such a contention.

Quote:
The use of body counts was lethal for civilians and ineffective as a measure of success in a counterinsurgency operation. Yet it resurfaced during the Iraq war.

2. Were you surprised to discover the scope of these crimes?

We didn’t really discover the extent of U.S. war crimes in Vietnam. While the war-crime archive is the largest compilation of government records on U.S. atrocities in Vietnam to surface so far, it’s not close to a full accounting. Evidence indicates the archive represents a small window into a much bigger problem.


http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004324


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 01:41 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Definitely heated up the anger - and provided a vacuum for Taliban leaders with cash to come in and build schools and indoctrinate in the area.


And where, pray tell, did that money come from, Beth?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:08 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
Taliban may not call themselves AQ but the fact is that in Pakistan the Taliban has been merged with militant extremist since the start of the Afghanistan war after 9/11. (moreover, they refused to hand over Bin Laden)


The delusion, and lies march inexorably on.

The Taliban did NOT refuse to hand over binLaden.

Quote:
I am glad the wars are winding down, however, we would be idiots to just assume that all those terrorist groups have turned over a new leaf.


There's no doubt that you are idiots, Rev.

The greatest terrorists in the world, by far, the CIA/US government, have only expanded their activities.

Quote:
"If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents," George Bush announced on the day he began bombing Afghanistan, "they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril." I'm glad he said "any government", as there's one which, though it has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism, requires his urgent attention.

For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or Whisc. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/30/afghanistan.terrorism19


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:14 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The Taliban did NOT refuse to hand over binLaden


technically correct

Quote:
A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night.
For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan's military leadership said.

But US officials appear to have dismissed the proposal and are instead hoping to engineer a split within the Taliban leadership

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/17/afghanistan.terrorism11
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Obama inherited two different wars - what did you want him to do? Quit on both of them immediately and send everyone home the minute he got into office? That wasn't politically possible,


"[P]olitically possible" - WOW! Innocents are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, others lives ruined, and [once again] where is the focus - on the US, on its ******* politics.

Obama couldn't quit immediately because that would have highlighted just what horrendous war crimes these actions were. It wasn't possibly only because it would have had a huge damaging affect on the US propaganda system.

But, of course, we must note your grand compassion, Cy.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
There aren't many, in large part b/c most countries replace their leaders every few years, and we're the only real country at war with another one right now.


You're not at war with anyone. Stop lying, Cy. You invaded, illegally, against UN policy, two sovereign nations that had done nothing to you. Y'all banter and bullshit in this clinical fashion, [which is very American, it has happened in all the illegal invasions since WWII] while people are dying and suffering, immeasurably, all due to your actions.

Robert is dead on in his comments and of course the usual tangents, diversions and deceptions are flowing freely from, guess who?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Fortunately for my position, dictionaries and other sources for definitions of words clearly agree with me and disagree with you.


Not really, Cy, but nice try. The first two examples I hit illustrate that the definition captures Obama's actions nicely.

=========

Houghton Mifflin

warmonger

NOUN:

One who advocates or attempts to stir up war.

=============

M-W

: one who urges or attempts to stir up war
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
It was actually a request for you to elucidate what you would have done differently. But you didn't take her up on it, preferring instead to hurl slings and arrows. Was greater enlightenment achieved by this?


Sound like anyone you know, Cycloptichorn?

Is the water in all the public water systems in the US hypocrisydated? How do they get it into all the private sources?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
We’ll see if that improves the condition of America…and if you personally think it was best for the nation and the world that things worked out that way.


Deja vu, Frank. Millions dead, y'all committed more war crimes and you are worried about the criminals. The world - MEH.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I'm not sure your first sentence is a given. If I were to actively and knowingly shield international terrorists in my house, my guess is that I would successfully be prosecuted for doing so - especially if those terrorists were continuing to plan and carry out operations that killed people during that time, which I was fully aware of


What of the thousands of terrorists that the US hides in plain view in the US, Cy? Thomas conveniently forgot to mention that because he has a fear of ruffling "friends'" feathers.

Nobody addresses the fact, least of all you, that the CIA is constantly committing acts of terrorism in countries all over the world. The US supports Israel in its terrorist actions, again, all over the world.

As pigheaded as you are, Cy, you know your notion that the US isn't a terrorist nation is completely bogus.

Why the hypocrisy?

Quote:
Well, if he doesn't get re-elected, it'll be someone who is far more of a warmonger who is elected;


After all your arguments that Obama isn't a warmonger, now he's a junior warmonger.

For your own protection, stay out of discussions on language issues, Cy.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 03:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I voted for Ronald Reagan in 1980 in part because I thought Jimmy Carter to be incompetent...and in part to teach him a lesson. My side of that dispute prevailed...and I have regretted that move with every fiber of my being since. We are still paying the price for that bit of folly on the part of the anybody-but-Carter faction


You poor poor babies, Frank. For ****'s sake, grab a brain. It ain't all about you, you conceited little prick! Reagan had 40 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans murdered. He bragged about it.

Would you show a little human decency and shut up already?
0 Replies
 
 

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