Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 06:47 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

gungasnake wrote:

"Evil" is a consequence of the loss of the antediluvian communication system; "evolution" is a bunch of bullshit.


Once again, a statement with zero backing up of facts and serious scientific analysis. The bible has so many errors that it can't even hold water.
It is designed to hold the attention, and it has done that for two thousand years almost, as it stands... There are a lot of good stories in the Bible... Look at Joseph and weep with him as he sees his brothers, though they sold him into slavery where doubtless he was castrated to be the servant of Pharaoh... There is a lot of comedy in that tragedy, as there is in the story of the Prodigal Son... I cannot deny what you say, except to add that the Bible is world class bullshit, and all fiction is so much of bullshit... The problem we have is that we do not exactly know the truth and the truth is always a moving target as reality is change; so to tell the truth is the more impossible the more exact we try to be... Some times an analogy of sorts, or perhaps a parable can tell more truth than a scientific review... People do not change, but adapt by changing their forms... Though the Bible and church dogma does not tell truth, it hints at it, and paints a true picture of people, how we live, and how we justify ourselves to each other and to our notion of God, and that is its value apart from historical behaviors often glossed over out of shame...
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2011 11:14 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

RexRed wrote:

gungasnake wrote:

"Evil" is a consequence of the loss of the antediluvian communication system; "evolution" is a bunch of bullshit.


Once again, a statement with zero backing up of facts and serious scientific analysis. The bible has so many errors that it can't even hold water.
It is designed to hold the attention, and it has done that for two thousand years almost, as it stands... There are a lot of good stories in the Bible... Look at Joseph and weep with him as he sees his brothers, though they sold him into slavery where doubtless he was castrated to be the servant of Pharaoh... There is a lot of comedy in that tragedy, as there is in the story of the Prodigal Son... I cannot deny what you say, except to add that the Bible is world class bullshit, and all fiction is so much of bullshit... The problem we have is that we do not exactly know the truth and the truth is always a moving target as reality is change; so to tell the truth is the more impossible the more exact we try to be... Some times an analogy of sorts, or perhaps a parable can tell more truth than a scientific review... People do not change, but adapt by changing their forms... Though the Bible and church dogma does not tell truth, it hints at it, and paints a true picture of people, how we live, and how we justify ourselves to each other and to our notion of God, and that is its value apart from historical behaviors often glossed over out of shame...


One thing I have learned (or think I have learned) is that no religion is pure truth, nor can one be pure lies.

Like Indian corn, you pick the kernels of truth that resonate with your own particular circumstance.

Every religion has a major flaw and a major truth. If it did not have truth people would not be drawn to it.

Jeremiah 2:13
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Comment: Broken cisterns, yet a fountain has an unlimited supply of water.

This is religion, philosophy and even politics. It is the way of the world where basic kernels need to remain established that seem conducive to religious liberties, equality and freedom from oppressive dogmatic laws.

The angels are the truths that set us free...
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 05:12 am
@RexRed,
The problems I have with evolution have nothing to do with the Bible; they have to do with the fact that evolution is garbage science and was the main philosophical cornerstone of Nazism and communism and a number of other ideological systems including the eugenics movements which were popular throughout the Western world in the 1800s and 1900s, and thus also a major cause of the two world wars.

Once again for the benefit of anybody who might have missed it, a standard FR explanation of the problems:

Quote:

The big lie which is being promulgated by evolutionists is that there is some sort of a dialectic between evolution and religion. There isn't. In order to have a meaningful dialectic between evolution and religion, you would need a religion which operated on an intellectual level similar to that of evolution, and the only two possible candidates would be voodoo and Rastifari.

The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some expect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, or some other member of that crowd.

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A for Adulteror, F for Fornicator or some such traditional design, or or a big scarlet letter I for IDIOT, you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the traditional choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God Hates IDIOTS Too...

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Quote:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....


You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

  • It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). In other words, the clowns promoting this BS are claiming that the very lack of intermediate fossils supports the theory. Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools. For instance, I could as easily claim that the fact that I'd never been seen with Tina Turner was all the proof anybody should need that I was sleeping with her. In other words, it might not work terribly well for science, but it's great for fantasies...

    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxBbTP7lYdWyifvIpoafdaze7s103OTEgN_V3V80q86SZLo5fE1w

  • PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

  • PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

  • PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

  • For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.


The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:



They don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"


They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

Quote:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!


Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?



Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 06:59 am
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

Fido wrote:

RexRed wrote:

gungasnake wrote:

"Evil" is a consequence of the loss of the antediluvian communication system; "evolution" is a bunch of bullshit.


Once again, a statement with zero backing up of facts and serious scientific analysis. The bible has so many errors that it can't even hold water.
It is designed to hold the attention, and it has done that for two thousand years almost, as it stands... There are a lot of good stories in the Bible... Look at Joseph and weep with him as he sees his brothers, though they sold him into slavery where doubtless he was castrated to be the servant of Pharaoh... There is a lot of comedy in that tragedy, as there is in the story of the Prodigal Son... I cannot deny what you say, except to add that the Bible is world class bullshit, and all fiction is so much of bullshit... The problem we have is that we do not exactly know the truth and the truth is always a moving target as reality is change; so to tell the truth is the more impossible the more exact we try to be... Some times an analogy of sorts, or perhaps a parable can tell more truth than a scientific review... People do not change, but adapt by changing their forms... Though the Bible and church dogma does not tell truth, it hints at it, and paints a true picture of people, how we live, and how we justify ourselves to each other and to our notion of God, and that is its value apart from historical behaviors often glossed over out of shame...


One thing I have learned (or think I have learned) is that no religion is pure truth, nor can one be pure lies.

Like Indian corn, you pick the kernels of truth that resonate with your own particular circumstance.

Every religion has a major flaw and a major truth. If it did not have truth people would not be drawn to it.

Jeremiah 2:13
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Comment: Broken cisterns, yet a fountain has an unlimited supply of water.

This is religion, philosophy and even politics. It is the way of the world where basic kernels need to remain established that seem conducive to religious liberties, equality and freedom from oppressive dogmatic laws.

The angels are the truths that set us free...


If you look at the spread of religion you can see that ancient morals and practices were never destroyed, but taken over... The reason Jesus so easily conquered South America, is that sacrifice for community was the highest and universal virtue... He was already their God minus the hypocracy of the priests and practicing Christians... When Islam spread around the world it did not change the way people behaved, or their technology for the most part, their weapons or methods of making war, their customs or culture, or languages... They accepted the book and rejected infidels and carried on as before...

Religion is just a form, and every form is a form of relationship... Jesus was really preaching something different as were many of the prophets... He was talking about an informal relationship with God sort of like what Job, or Abraham had with God, since each disputed with God, as we should all do to determine what we should do, what is right, and what is good... To rely upon the form of religion is to save your thoughts and soul for business and the stuff of life... And that is the way the Jews were and many Christians as well as many Muslims... It is easy to look with scorn upon the sort that go through the motions and never see the meaning... I do not think I am better for seeing the meaning and no giving heed to it... If we say we belive in Jesus as God, or even if we accept him as a prophet or philosopher, then there is no natural limit to our obligation to our fellow man which is the proper demonstration of our love of God...

I do not accept God any more than I accept evil as other than moral forms so I can praise God with my mouth, and bitch slap at evil with my hands but I do not give much of myself to either pursuit because to do so would, first of all, mark me as a nut case...The only acceptable attitude toward life is Ennui... Is it over yet??? Is it pay day yet??? Am I stuck in a goddamned time warp here or wtf??? Change is everywhere required and everywhere resisted and sin is our only way of feeling we really deserve the indignity that life and old age forces opon us...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 07:12 am
@gungasnake,
Social Darwinism may have played a part in the racial theories of Nazism, but it was not science but pseudoscience that justified them... Even archiology was brought to bear in defense of Aryan racial theories until even Himler had to warn Hitler that the archeological record rather revealed that the Egyptians and others were living in advanced civilizations while the Aryans were living in tents or mud huts... Nationalism everywhere brings with it violence and war, and it was that theory much more directly than Darwinism that justified the rise of the Nazis... I think you misunderstand human behavior in gross...First of all, whether it was the anti democracy of the German people, or their Nationalism, or more directly, their Anti-Semitism, that people want to do as they want to do, and it is for this reason that they seek rationalization and evidence... It is pathology, or at minimum, irrationality that drives humanity, and reason is only a means of achieving irrational goals...

Seriously; no weight of evidence has ever been shown to change a single mind... It is changes of mind based upon changes of emotion that seek a defense of the change... What the Germans did in support of the Nazis required only more of what Germany already was... The Pope gave the Nazis neither support or resistence until the reactionary Pius the 12th became Pope, and he had already worked hard in Germany to enforce dogma and exclude dissident elements... He has justly been called Hitler's Pope... The protestants for their part, the Lutherans have always maintained a dicotomy of humanity, with people living the double life, internally Christian, and externally obediant to public authority... Neither church gave any individual the mandate to resist secular authority, but rather gave defense to secular authority... The place had for a long time already been nazi in everything but name... The schools still had the portrates of the Kaisar on the wall, and even the most intelligent and educated professors dispised democracy... They were made for tyranny, and it was ingrained in them...
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 08:53 am
@Fido,

Newt Gingrich once stated the problem of evolutionism and morality about as succinctly as is possible in noting that the question of whether a man views his neighbor as a fellow child of God or as a meat byproduct of random processes simply has to affect human relationships.

Basically, every halfway honest person with any brains and talent who has taken any sort of a hard look at evolution in the past 60 years has given up on it and many have denounced it. A listing of fifty or sixty such statements makes for an overwhelming indictment of that part of the scientific community which goes on trying to defend evolution and they (the evolosers) have a favorite term ("quote mining") which they use to describe that sort of argument.

My own response to that is to note what I view as the ultimate evolution quote by the noted evolutionist (actually, FORMER evolutionist) Jeffrey Dahmer:

Quote:

"If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…"

Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994.




Dahmer converted to Christianity before he died. The basic tenets of true religion appear to be inprinted upon most of us biologically which is the only reason that Islammic societies and "secular humanist" societies like Britain and Canada function at all. A psychopath like Dahmer is basically somebody on whom that imprint did not take. For those guys, it has to be written down somewhere, and it has to be written down accurately; the bible does that. Telling somebody like Dahmer that we all evolved from "lucky dust" is a formula for getting people killed.

Evolution was the basic philosophical cornerstone of communism, naziism, the various eugenics programs, the out of control arms races which led to WW-I and WW-II, and all of the grief of the last 150 years. Starting from 1913, Europe had gone for a hundred years without a major war. They didn't even have to think. All they needed to do was act cool, go to church, have parades, formal balls, attend board meetings, and they'd still be running the world today; they'd be so fat and happy they'd not know what to do with themselves. Instead, they all got to reading about Darwinism, fang and claw, survival of the fittest and all the rest of that nonsense, and the rest as they say is history.


The most interesting analysis of that sad tale is probably Sir Arthur Keith's "Evolution and Ethics"



Keith apparently viewed belief in evolution as some sort of duty of the English educated classes, nonetheless he had a very clear vision of the problems inherent in it and laid it out in no uncertain terms:

From Sir Srthur Keith's "Evolution and Ethics:




Chapter 3

The Behavior of Germany Considered from an Evolutionary Point of View in 1942

VISITORS TO GERMANY IN 1934 FOUND AN emotional storm sweeping through masses of the people, particularly the more educated. The movement had much in common with a religious revival. The preacher in this case was Adolf Hitler; his doctrine was, and is, tribalism; he had stirred in the emotional depths of the German people those long-dormant tribal feelings which find release and relief in mutual service; men and women who had been leading selfish lives or were drifting aimlessly were given a new purpose in life: service to their country the Third Reich. It is worth noting that Hitler uses a double designation for his tribal doctrine National Socialism: Socialism standing for the good side of the tribal spirit (that which works within the Reich); aud Nationalism for the ethically vicious part, which dominates policy at and outside the German frontiers.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front"; he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people. He has brought into

10.

modern life the tribal and evolutionary mentality of prehistoric times. Hitler has confronted the statesmen of the world with an evolutionary problem of an unprecedented magnitude. What is the world to do with a united aggressive tribe numbering eighty millions!

We must not lose sight of the purpose of our visit to Germany; it was to see how far modern evolutionary practice can provide us with a scientific basis for ethical or moral behavior. As a source of information concerning Hitler's evolutionary and ethical doctrines I have before me Mein Kampf, extracts from The Times covering German affairs during the last twenty years, and the monthly journal R.F.C. (Racio Political Foreign Correspondenee), published by the German Bureau for Human Betterment and Eugenics and circulated by that bureau for the enlightenment of anthropologists living abroad. In the number of that journal for July 1937, there appears in English the text of a speech given by the German Fuhrer on January 30, 1937, in reply to a statement made by Mr. Anthony Eden that "the German race theory" stood in the way of a common discussion of European problems. Hitler maintained his theory would have an opposite effect; "it will bring about a real understanding for the first time." "It is not for men," said the Fuhrer, "to discuss the question of why Providence created different races, but rather to recognize that it punishes those who disregard its work of creation." I may remark incidentally that in this passage, as in many others, the German Fuhrer, like Bishop Barnes and many of our more intellectual clergy, regards evolution as God's mode of creation. God having created races, it is therefore "the noblest and most sacred duty for each racial species of mankind to preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it." Here we have expounded the perfectly sound doctrine of evolutionary isolation; even as an ethical doctrine it should not be condemned. No German must be guilty of the "greatest racial sin" that of bringing the fruits of hybridity into the world. The reproductive "genes" which circulate within the frontiers of Germany must be kept uncontaminated, so that they may work out the racial destiny of the German people without impediment. Hitler is also a eugenist. Germans who suffer from

11.

hereditable imperfections of mind or of body must be rendered infertile, so that "the strong may not be plagued by the weak." Sir Francis Galton, the founder of eugenics, taught a somewhat similar evolutionary doctrine namely, that if our nation was to prosper we must give encouragement to the strong rather than to the weak; a saving which may be justified by evolution, but not by ethics as recognized and practiced by civilized peoples. The liberties of German women are to be sacrificed; they must devote their activities to their households, especially to the sacred duty of raising succeeding generations. The birth rate was stimulated by bounties and subsidies so that the German tribe might grow in numbers and in strength. In all these matters the Nazi doctrine is evolutionist.

Hitler has sought on every occasion and in every way to heighten the national consciousness of the German people or, what is the same thing, to make them racially conscious; to give them unity of spirit and unity of purpose. Neighborly approaches of adjacent nations are and were repelled; the German people were deliberately isolated. Cosmopolitanism, liberality of opinion, affectation of foreign manners and dress were unsparingly condemned. The old tribal bonds (love of the Fatherland, feeling of mutual kinship), the bonds of "soil and blood," became "the main plank in the National Social program." "Germany was for the Germans" was another plank. Foreign policy was "good or bad according to its beneficial or harmful effects on the German folk now or hereafter." "Charity and humility are only for home consumption" a statement in which Hitler gives an exact expression of the law which limits sympathy to its tribe. "Humanitarianism is an evil . . . a creeping poison." "The most cruel methods are humane if they give a speedy victory" is Hitler's echo of a maxim attributed to Moltke. Such are the ways of evolution when applied to human affairs.

I have said nothing about the methods employed by the Nazi leaders to secure tribal unity in Germany methods of brutal compulsion, bloody force, and the concentration camp. Such methods cannot be brought within even a Machiavellian system of ethics, and yet may be justified by their evolutionary result.

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Even in that result we may harbor a doubt: can unity obtained by such methods be relied on to endure?

There are other aspects of Nazi policy which raise points which may be legitimate subjects of ethical debate. In recent years British men of science have debated this ethical problem: an important discovery having been made a new poison gas, for example is it not the duty of the discoverer to suppress it if there is a possibility of its being used for an evil purpose? My personal conviction is that science is concerned wholly with truth, not with ethics. A man of science is responsible for the accuracy of his observations and of his inferences, not for the results which may follow therefrom. Under no circumstances should the truth be suppressed; yet suppression and distortion of the truth is a deliberate part of Nazi policy. Every anthropologist in Germany, be he German or Jew, was and is silenced in Nazi Germany unless the Hitlerian racial doctrine is accepted without any reservation whatsoever. Authors, artists, preachers, and editors are undone if they stray beyond the limits of the National Socialist tether. Individual liberty of thought and of its expression is completely suppressed. An effective tribal unity is thus attained at the expense of truth. And yet has not the Church in past times persecuted science just in this Hitlerian way? There was a time, and not so long ago, when it was dangerous for a biologist to harbor a thought that clashed in any way with the Mosaic theory of creation.

No aspect of Hitler's policy proclaims the antagonism between evolution and ethics so forcibly as his treatment of the Jewish people in Germany. So strong are the feelings roused that it is difficult for even science to approach the issues so raised with an unclouded judgment. Ethically the Hitlerian treatment of the Jews stands condemned out of hand. Hitler is cruel, but I do not think that his policy can be explained by attributing it to a mere satisfaction of a lust, or to a search for a scapegoat on which Germany can wreak her wrath for the ills which followed her defeat of 1918. The Church in Spain subjected the Jews to the cruelty of the Inquisition, but no one ever sought to explain the Church's behavior by suggesting that she had a

13.

lust for cruelty which had to be satisfied. The Church adopted the Inquisition as a policy; it was a means of securing unity of mind in her flock. Hitler is an uncompromising evolutionist, and we must seek for an evolutionary explanation if we are to understand his actions. When the Huguenots fled to Germany they mingled their "genes" with those of their host and disappeared as an entity. The Jews are made of other stuff: for two thousand years, living amid European communities, they have maintained their identity; it is an article of their creed, as it is of Hitler's, to breed true. They, too, practice an evolutionary doctrine. Is it possible for two peoples living within the same frontiers, dwelling side by side, to work out harmoniously their separate evolutionary destinies? Apparently Hitler believes this to be impossible; we in Britain and in America believe it to be not only possible, but also profitable.

It must not be thought that in seeking to explain Hitler's actions I am seeking to justify them. The opposite is the case. I have made this brief survey of public policy in modern Germany with a definite object: to show that Dr. Waddington is in error when he seeks to place ethics on a scientific basis by a knowledge of evolutionary tendencies and practice.

Chapter 4

Human Life: Its Purpose or Ultimate End

IN THE COURSE OF GATHERING INFORMATION concerning man's morality and the part it has played and is playing in his evolution, I found it necessary to provide space for slips which were labeled "Life: Its Ultimate and Proximate Purposes." Only those who have devoted some special attention to this matter are aware of the multitude of reasons given for the appearance of man on earth. Here I shall touch on only a few of them; to deal with all would require a big book. The reader may exclaim: Why deal with any of them! What has ultimate purpose got to do with ethics and evolution! Let a man with a clearer head and a nimbler pen than mine reply. He is Edward Carpenter, who wrote Civilization: Its Cause and Cure (1889).

14.

It is from the sixteenth edition (1923) I am to quote, p. 249:

If we have decided what the final purpose or Life of Man is, then we may say that what is good for that purpose is finally "good" and what is bad for that purpose is finally "evil."

If the final purpose of our existence is that which has been and is being worked out under the discipline of evolutionary law, then, although we are quite unconscious of the end result, we ought, as Dr. Waddington has urged, to help on "that which tends to promote the ultimate course of evolution." If we do so, then we have to abandon the hope of ever attaining a universal system of ethics; for, as we have just seen, the ways of national evolution, both in the past and in the present, are cruel, brutal, ruthless, and without mercy. Dr. Waddington has not grasped the implications of Nature's method of evolution, for in his summing up (Nature, 1941, 150, p. 535) he writes "that the ethical principles formulated by Christ . . . are those which have tended towards the further evolution of mankind, and that they will continue to do so." Here a question of the highest interest is raised: the relationship which exists between evolution and Christianity; so important, it seems to me, that I shall devote to it a separate chapter. Meantime let me say that the conclusion I have come to is this: the law of Christ is incompatible with the law of evolution as far as the law of evolution has worked hitherto. Nay, the two laws are at war with each other; the law of Christ can never prevail until the law of evolution is destroyed. Clearly the form of evolution which Dr. Waddington has in mind is not that which has hitherto prevailed; what he has in mind is a man made system of evolution. In brief, instead of seeking ethical guidance from evolution, he now proposes to impose a system of ethics on evolution and so bring humanity ultimately to a safe and final anchorage in a Christian haven.
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 10:37 am
@gungasnake,
Newt was absolutely wrong, and so were the Nazis... The metaphysic of man created individually by God has never resulted in human treatment of humanity by humanity... Science comes much closer to a view of human equality and brotherhood than religion ever has, and actually puts a rational defense behind it... The children of God have simply established another justification for the enslavement and murder of mankind... It is the fact that we share one life, not only with humanity but with all living organism that actually defends humanity from ourselves and nature from us... As Lincoln told some schoolmates who were heaping coals on the backs of terrapins to free them from their shells: Even an ant has much regard for his life as you do for yours...

This may be the only place in the entire cosmos were life has developed, and while it may be beyond conception is not beneath our treasuring... We really should consider all we kill to have our lives and make our lives worth all the killing we do to have them... We too shall die, and the inate regard we have for our own lives which should be the fountain of all meaning is only the excuse we use for spreading destruction and misery around... Freud was correct in my opinion, that the death wish was behind all human progress, and what progress too often means is more misery and destruction for nature and humanity...There is nothing in the metaphysic of human creation by the hand of God that ever gives a sense of the value of life, and the fact that no matter what, we can trade in this life for an eternal one and saved by a simple formula from damnation will live forever in glory only discredits this life we share, and excuse the most execrable inhumanity..

Before you quote Jeff Dahmer or use A. hitler as an example you might consider all that makes psychopaths psychopaths... Children naturally feel a connection with people, and bond long before they grasp any concept of theology, and clearly, some people are incapable of bonding and loving, of sympathy or empathy with humanity... hitler ordered a law to prevent cruelty to lobsters, and began world war two in Europe with its millions of individual deaths, tortures, slavery, and horrors...He has many unarmed individuals slaughtered and spared only others because he could enslave them... Behind all morality is community to such an extent that morality may safely be considered as community for traditionally, no one was required to treat enemies or strangers with anything approaching morally acceptable behavior for ones own people...Ultimately, it is the connection people have emotionally with others that makes them human, and you should consider the people we have in power who will order the deaths of thousands the way you or I might order a burger, and for what more than success in the next election... If they were as careless of the near and dear in their lives they would be psychopaths, but are only sociopathic in their behavior...
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 02:30 pm
@gungasnake,
Plagiarising again Gungasneak. Is it because your words aren't good enough?

http://bearfabrique.org/Evolution08/SinkBeagle/law_of_evolution.HTML
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2011 11:41 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
Newt was absolutely wrong, and so were the Nazis... The metaphysic of man created individually by God has never resulted in human treatment of humanity by humanity... Science comes much closer to a view of human equality and brotherhood than religion ever has, ...



Science by itself when viewed as a philosophical system not in need of any sort of a system of ethics or morality has produced the sort of humaneness which Arthur Keith described.

The question of what religion has produced depends on your take on it. The teachings of Jesus when followed as per his own words have produced more righteousness on the planet than any other system or device. The religion of the old testament and other religious practices from the time between Moses and Alexander more or less are best understood in the light of Julian Jaynes theories and could no more be expected to have produced happiness than any other sort of psychosis.

Idolatry in particular turned much of the planet into an insane assylum for a thousand years more or less, that's the basic reason for the first commandment being the first, Again Jaynes description of the thing tops anything else available in print.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 02:25 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
The question of what religion has produced depends on your take on it.


And your take is whatever you can cut and paste from the net, because you have neither the wit, nor the wisdom to articulate an argument yourself. Plagiarist.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 06:17 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
Newt was absolutely wrong, and so were the Nazis... The metaphysic of man created individually by God has never resulted in human treatment of humanity by humanity... Science comes much closer to a view of human equality and brotherhood than religion ever has, ...



Science by itself when viewed as a philosophical system not in need of any sort of a system of ethics or morality has produced the sort of humaneness which Arthur Keith described.

The question of what religion has produced depends on your take on it. The teachings of Jesus when followed as per his own words have produced more righteousness on the planet than any other system or device. The religion of the old testament and other religious practices from the time between Moses and Alexander more or less are best understood in the light of Julian Jaynes theories and could no more be expected to have produced happiness than any other sort of psychosis.

Idolatry in particular turned much of the planet into an insane assylum for a thousand years more or less, that's the basic reason for the first commandment being the first, Again Jaynes description of the thing tops anything else available in print.
There is no difference between Christianity and idolatry... Both systems of belief make God small and anthropomorphise God... Both make sacrifice a key to their belief in the thought that God can be bought, and it is the common people who bear this sacrifice for the most part since they have the greatest need, the most to gain, with lives of misery and little to lose but life... Science has always made God greater as it has made nature great, and made God's ways more mysterious with every mystery revealed... The belief in the God suggested by Jesus is not out of the question, and is certainly an improvement over the idiot worshipped by the Jews... The worship or Jesus as God is stupid on stupid, and it makes all his teaching and preaching meaningless, since, if he had the power, and God has both the knowledge and the power, then why does God not do for humanity all that Jesus thinks humanity should do for itself??? I do believe Jesus was right when he said we were gods... We do have the power over good and evil, and all we have to do is recognize our own ability and follow through... Leaving it to the future to correct the mistakes of the past that we continue to choose to make for ourselve is slovenly... We are conscious beings with great power... I refuse to ask God to save us from ourselves...
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 07:29 am
@Fido,
Quote:
There is no difference between Christianity and idolatry.


There IS a difference and it is a huge one. Again the best account of what idolatry amounted to:

http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FlFSjt2OL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

People worshipping those ancient idols were performing complex rituals which caused entire villages and towns to hear voices, seemingly emanating FROM those idols, and the voices were demanding they fight wars and sacrifice children, and the voices were INSIDE THEIR HEADS, so that they could not escape them and, hence ultimately, could not disobey them.

Kind of like a town or village comprised of several hundred or several thousand Sons of Sam. THAT is what I mean by turning much of the planet into an insane assylum for centuries and it is also why those old religions were ultimately banned everywhere on Earth and why medieval people viewed them with such horror.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 07:30 am
@izzythepush,
I've decided to ignore the idiots on a2k. Bye.....
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 07:38 am
@gungasnake,
I own that book and have owned it for many years... It is good, but dated... And the Christians and Jews and Muslims have the same in their Moses, and the burning bush... And as he points out, there was a great effort in Judaism to punish prophecy which involved piercing the hands with a rod... And if that would not work worse was to follow... Remember those line: I am an earthling man, and this injury is one I recieved in the home of my friends... Do you see any shades of Jesus in the pierced hands???
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 09:12 am
@Fido,
Visionary books don't get "dated". Israelites of Zechariah's day banned prophecy because the practice had ceased to work, i.e. because the information prophets were coming back with had turned to mush and it had become dangerous to listen to them. Prior to that time entire societies had run on information from prophets and oracles for centuries.

Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 10:09 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Visionary books don't get "dated". Israelites of Zechariah's day banned prophecy because the practice had ceased to work, i.e. because the information prophets were coming back with had turned to mush and it had become dangerous to listen to them. Prior to that time entire societies had run on information from prophets and oracles for centuries.


Bullshit... The old testament prophets saw through the priestly class who had discovered new laws in the old temple, and who then imposed those new laws on the Jews who had escaped captivity... Such is the power of self serving inequality, that it stuffs up the voice of protest, and then the mind... They turned Judea into a desert ready made for conquest by the Romans, and when the Romans finally grew sick of the discontent there, they took Jeruselem, and shook enough gold out of the place to build the colloseum...

That was were Jesus preached and prophesied, a land bitterly poor, mired in law, where men would fall out with other men over a days wages, and sue each other for their tunics... The coin only of Judea could be offered, so all other coin had to be changed, but where was the coin of Judea coming from to be exchanged, if not from within the temple??? They were all conspiring to rob and weaken the Children of Abraham, and so it has always been, that the worst enemies of the Jews has always been the Jews, and the rightious suffer the iniquity of the evil, and no evil was worse than that of the priests... They gave Jesus to the Romans and accused him of insurrection, and he died the death of a revolutionary because he challenged the authority of the priests, but no less than other prophets...
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2011 12:34 pm
@gungasnake,
You're the idiot if you can get away with plagiarism, sneak.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2011 05:59 pm
Psalm 91

1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 11:14 pm
http://www.reverbnation.com/rexredmusicartist/song/20306041-i-wanna-be-your-vampire
0 Replies
 
 

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