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Are physicalists & materialists more likely to support abortion & euthanasia & killing the enemy?

 
 
igm
 
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:22 pm
I mean the majority of those with these views. Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m just curious… I’m just as happy with a reason for ‘no’ as a reason for ‘yes’ or a reason why neither is appropriate...but not just a one word reply. Also are they likely to move any line drawn e.g. earlier abortions etc...
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,460 • Replies: 27
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raprap
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:50 pm
@igm,
Do you mean scientists or in general?

As for the scientists I'd say no as based upon history--Guillotine invention was to make execution 'humane', Gatling's invention was to make a weapon so horrible that wars would be unthinkable, and many of the Manhattan Project Physicists petitioned Truman not to use the 'device'.

As for moralists one then would have to consider who is in favor of the death penalty and consider that the state with longest line to the gas chamber is Texas.

As for abortion and euthanasia---most rationalists that I know consider abortion to be a piss poor method of birth control and euthanasia as an individual decision.

Rap
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:51 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

I mean the majority of those with these views. Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m just curious… I’m just as happy with a reason for ‘no’ as a reason for ‘yes’ or a reason why neither is appropriate...but not just a one word reply. Also are they likely to move any line drawn e.g. earlier abortions etc...

I think it makes more sense to say 'later' abortions... of course! More reasons to offer euthanasia etc...
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:04 pm
@igm,
I consider myself a materialist, but that is from my own definition. Don't ask, none of your business.

I support the right to abortion; I'm no fan of it and would rather other options work out. I support the right to euthanasia, or think I do, as assisted suicide but with qualms, thus case by case. I prefer cessation of intervention. I am extremely anti war, but even that, not entirely..

Do you conflate the views of people whom you call physicalists and materialists?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:05 pm
@raprap,
raprap wrote:

Do you mean scientists or in general?

I mean those who hold those philosophical views, scientist or not, but not those among the general public who have a vague idea about such things but don’t really adhere to them philosophically.
raprap wrote:

As for the scientists I'd say no as based upon history--Guillotine invention was to make execution 'humane', Gatling's invention was to make a weapon so horrible that wars would be unthinkable, and many of the Manhattan Project Physicists petitioned Truman not to use the 'device'.
As for moralists one then would have to consider who is in favor of the death penalty and consider that the state with longest line to the gas chamber is Texas.

As for abortion and euthanasia---most rationalists that I know consider abortion to be a piss poor method of birth control and euthanasia as an individual decision.

You don’t think they are more likely to agree to these actions and agree to extend them if practical (for them to do so) than those who don’t hold their views i.e. percentage wise?
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:15 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I consider myself a materialist, but that is from my own definition. Don't ask, none of your business.

I support the right to abortion; I'm no fan of it and would rather other options work out. I support the right to euthanasia, or think I do, as assisted suicide but with qualms, thus case by case. I prefer cessation of intervention. I am extremely anti war, but even that, not entirely..

Ok, thanks! Do you think that materialists in general would be more likely to find reasons to 'move the line' i.e. later abortions, more reasons for euthanasia, more justifications for war than the general public plus non-materialist & physicalists?
ossobuco wrote:

Do you conflate the views of people whom you call physicalists and materialists?

Only in the broadest sense i.e. I’m not looking at the less broad differences.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:24 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

ossobuco wrote:

I consider myself a materialist, but that is from my own definition. Don't ask, none of your business.

I support the right to abortion; I'm no fan of it and would rather other options work out. I support the right to euthanasia, or think I do, as assisted suicide but with qualms, thus case by case. I prefer cessation of intervention. I am extremely anti war, but even that, not entirely..

Ok, thanks! Do you think that materialists in general would be more likely to find reasons to 'move the line' i.e. later abortions, more reasons for euthanasia, more justifications for war than the general public plus non-materialist & physicalists?

No. Maybe the opposite. But I don't think I get your connection. Do you think materialists don't care about human life?

ossobuco wrote:

Do you conflate the views of people whom you call physicalists and materialists?

Only in the broadest sense i.e. I’m not looking at the less broad differences.

I am guessing that you think materialists have no sense of the preciousness of human life. You would be wrong.

Wars have started, of course, for religious reasons. Or territorial reasons, which I suppose takes all kinds.



igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:52 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I consider myself a materialist, but that is from my own definition. Don't ask, none of your business.

igm wrote:

Ok, thanks! Do you think that materialists in general would be more likely to find reasons to 'move the line' i.e. later abortions, more reasons for euthanasia, more justifications for war than the general public plus non-materialist & physicalists?

ossobuco wrote:

No. Maybe the opposite.

So you believe that materialists are less likely to move the line, so to speak? I was wondering if being more practical minded they'd focus resources on the majority of the citizens. Pre-birth and end of life being grey areas and us being, well working machines in the middle but not so at the very start and the very end? Whereas religious folk and people with non-defined views would be more hesitant in general.
ossobuco wrote:

But I don't think I get your connection. Do you think materialists don't care about human life?

I'm not talking about individuals but the majority. I'm wondering if they would cater for the majority and be more radical with early life and end of life and the enemy. I don't have an opinion just curious about how others’ see it. Surely, religious people and those without firm views would be more hesitant as a group (again not as individuals, we are all different as you've already said).
ossobuco wrote:

Do you conflate the views of people whom you call physicalists and materialists?

Only in the broadest sense i.e. I’m not looking at the less broad differences.
ossobuco wrote:

I am guessing that you think materialists have no sense of the preciousness of human life. You would be wrong.
Wars have started, of course, for religious reasons. Or territorial reasons, which I suppose takes all kinds.

I am not saying this. If you check above you'll find no evidence of this. I'm just curious about the opinions etc.. of others regarding this subject.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 06:14 pm
This is conflation -

" I'm wondering if they would cater for the majority and be more radical with early life and end of life and the enemy."


I said "no".

Find some others to feed your construct.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 06:37 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I consider myself a materialist, but that is from my own definition. Don't ask, none of your business.

igm wrote:
Ok, thanks! Do you think that materialists in general would be more likely to find reasons to 'move the line' i.e. later abortions, more reasons for euthanasia, more justifications for war than the general public plus non-materialist & physicalists?

ossobuco wrote:
No. Maybe the opposite.

Aren’t religious people more likely than materialists to oppose abortion & euthanasia due to their beliefs? I can’t see how the majority of materialists would be more likely to appose a change in the law on these things to include a wider catchment. Or those without any particular firm view one way or the other i.e. those who aren’t materialists or physicalists or religious?
ossobuco wrote:
But I don't think I get your connection. Do you think materialists don't care about human life?

Do you think that abortion, euthanasia and killing the enemy show a lack of care for human life or just a solution to a problem? If you see it as a necessary solution then why would you think it follows that materialists in general ‘don’t care about human life?
ossobuco wrote:
This is conflation -

" I'm wondering if they would cater for the majority and be more radical with early life and end of life and the enemy."

I didn’t say it wasn’t:
ossobuco wrote:
Do you conflate the views of people whom you call physicalists and materialists?


igm wrote:
Only in the broadest sense i.e. I’m not looking at the less broad differences.

I understand if you want to leave it there. Thanks for your input.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 07:00 am
It seems to me if you think of the person as a biological machine then it follows that you’d be more willing to agree to abortion laws because the ‘machine’ doesn’t fully function or appears not to be a person at conception.

Similarly, near to death when death is almost certainly inevitable. Those who believe the person is a biological machine will examine ‘quality of life’ and if its concluded that it is so poor that ‘life is not worth living’ then euthanasia is practical solution as there is no need to continue a life that has no future in terms of quality of life and therefore no future at all.

Killing the enemy could be seen as removing faulty machines which threaten those who can live in harmony with one another.

Now, if you’re religious, then your beliefs would make you hesitate in changing laws to condone these three actions or to make them more radical. Also if you don’t have a fixed view of us being biological machines then I believe you would still be more hesitant in regard to them. Therefore I believe that in general (there will be exceptions) materialists and physicalists would be more likely to introduce and increase the scope of abortion, euthanasia and killing the enemy.

This is not to say that I am saying it is inherently right or wrong to legislate or encourage or carryout these actions.

Any thoughts on this?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:38 am
@igm,
Quote:
Are physicalists & materialists more likely to support abortion & euthanasia & killing the enemy?


I think they are less likely to cloud the issues with religious dogma, but there is a whole bunch of other stuff they can introduce to the issue that would cloud it just as much.

Sometimes death is a mercy. When morals make people suffer I find it distasteful, and it seems to me that it is the materialistic view of life that advocates this strict "no mercy policy". Someone who believes in a life after death would not be so opposed to ending suffering when death was near and inevitable anyway.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 11:11 am
Religious people don't form a monolithic mass, all members with the same opinions, and neither do non religious people.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:00 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Are physicalists & materialists more likely to support abortion & euthanasia & killing the enemy?


I think they are less likely to cloud the issues with religious dogma, but there is a whole bunch of other stuff they can introduce to the issue that would cloud it just as much.

Sometimes death is a mercy. When morals make people suffer I find it distasteful, and it seems to me that it is the materialistic view of life that advocates this strict "no mercy policy". Someone who believes in a life after death would not be so opposed to ending suffering when death was near and inevitable anyway.

...mmm...interesting points. I think some karma based religions do not advocate euthanasia as they see it as avoiding an effect that will just be experienced in some future life when the conditions are favourable. They believe that cause and effect cannot be sidestepped so we might as well experience it now rather than putting it off for later. I'm pretty sure that's how they see it. Many other faiths, as we know, won’t allow it because it is seen as a sin.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:15 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Religious people don't form a monolithic mass, all members with the same opinions, and neither do non religious people.

I think they can in some ways e.g. Christians would form a 'monolithic mass' in believing they have a soul and they will either go to heaven or hell when they die and life is given by God and can only be taken away by God... if they are aware that these are Christian teachings.

If a view such as materialism sees us as biological machines then their view will color thoughts and from those thoughts similar actions will either arise or be seen… if others act… to be acceptable, in general, percentage wise. But of course some will be viewing things differently from the majority either because they don’t understand the materialist view or they wish to diverge from it in some way. I'm trying to identify what the majority would do among those who understand what it means to be a materialist to follow the materialist philosophy and who understand the ramifications and implications of that view.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:09 pm
@igm,
...I think bottom line what nobody forgives them is the incoherence in which they live...when it comes to business they don´t play by faith alone, they are in fact very rational when it comes down to day to day life decisions...
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:16 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...I think bottom line what nobody forgives them is the incoherence in which they live...when it comes to business they don´t play by faith alone, they are in fact very rational when it comes down to day to day life decisions...

Can you give more details e.g. can you claify who..'them' is (just to make sure I'm understanding you)?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:18 pm
@igm,
..."religious maniacs" who else ? "Nespresso" ?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:19 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

..."religious maniacs" who else ? "Nespresso" ?

Ah! now it's clear. Thanks!
0 Replies
 
bigstew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 11:40 am
@igm,
I'm a materialist, and I don't think the materialist position per se commits one to supporting all three actions unquestionably. Materialists just support the metaphysical view of closed physical system. What that means for moral reasoning is up for debate.
 

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