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Have the Germans Figured out yet that Shutting Down Nuclear is IDIOTIC??

 
 
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 12:45 am
Quote:
Pharmaceutical and chemical giant Bayer on Saturday issued a warning that it may leave Germany because of rising electricity prices linked to Germany's decision to end its nuclear energy program.

Bayer employs 35,000 people in Germany, but CEO Marijn Dekkers told the German weekly business magazine Wirtschaftswoche that energy prices posed a genuine threat to the company's manufacturing operations in the country.

"It is important that we remain competitive in comparison with other countries," Dekkers told the magazine. "Otherwise, a global business such as Bayer would have to consider relocating its production to countries with lower energy costs."

Dutchman Dekkers complained that Germany, which has the highest energy prices in Europe, was becoming less attractive to energy-intensive sectors such as the chemical industry.


Bayer employs some 35,000 people in Germany

"Energy prices will continue to rise and they are already the highest in the EU," he said.

German energy prices are expected to rise following the decision by German authorities to shutter its nuclear power plants. Last month, parliament sealed plans to phase out nuclear energy by 2022, making the country the first major industrial power to take the step in the wake of the disaster at Japan's Fukushima plant

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15300384,00.html

I am not holding my breath on this one......
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 01:05 am
Quote:
Have the Germans Figured out yet that Shutting Down Nuclear is IDIOTIC??


Obviously not. According to polls, up to 80% want it.
The political parties want it > have to
The parliament wants it > has to
It's a law.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 01:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
It's a law
It is a brand new law, and laws can be changed. You all have a couple of years to come to your senses...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 01:21 am
@hawkeye10,
Certainly.

Politicians and lawmakers can be and will be changed as well.
As well as public opinions changes.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 01:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Certainly.

Politicians and lawmakers can be and will be changed as well.
As well as public opinions changes.


The move was extremely hasty, with almost no consideration of the effect. It is irrational as well, as there is no reason to think that the German Government is anywhere near as inept at running the Nuclear Industry as Japan's is.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2012 12:14 am
Quote:
The European Commission put its gas coordination committee on alert on Friday after confirming that Russian gas deliveries to at least nine countries had fallen by up to 30 percent. The Commission insisted, however, the situation had not yet reached an emergency level.

Marlene Holzer, a spokeswoman for EU energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger, confirmed drops in supplies in Austria, Bulgaria, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Romania and Slovakia.

She said that the state-owned giant Gazprom was making use of flexibility clauses in its contracts as "there is exceptionally cold weather, and Russia needs more gas (for its own use) than normal."
Gazprom asserted on Thursday, however, that it had increased deliveries through a Ukrainian pipeline in response to a higher demand from EU states, implying that Naftogaz, the Ukrainian gas company, has been tapping into gas destined to Europe - a claim made by Moscow in recent winters. The Ukrainian gas company has denied the claims.


Europe is experiencing a particularly harsh cold snap

Ukrainian Fuel and Energy Minister Yuri Boiko said Russia was shipping around 15 percent less than usual because of increased domestic consumption due to abnormally low temperatures


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15717225,00.html

Ya......about that plan to shut down the nuclear reactors and backstop most of the loss with natural gas generated electricity....

Dumb, dumb, dumb...


About that plan to buy a bit more juice from the French to help cover the difference....the French are just barely avoiding rationing, so it does not seem that they have much to sell.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2012 12:46 am
Goodnight Sunshine

Germany is cutting solar-power subsidies because they are expensive and inefficient

Quote:
Germany once prided itself on being the “photovoltaic world champion”, doling out generous subsidies—totaling more than $130 billion, according to research from Germany’s Ruhr University—to citizens to invest in solar energy. But now the German government is vowing to cut the subsidies sooner than planned and to phase out support over the next five years. What went wrong?
Subsidizing green technology is affordable only if it is done in tiny, tokenistic amounts. Using the government’s generous subsidies, Germans installed 7.5 gigawatts of photovoltaic capacity last year, more than double what the government had deemed “acceptable.” It is estimated that this increase alone will lead to a $260 hike in the average consumer’s annual power bill.
According to Der Spiegel, even members of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s staff are now describing the policy as a massive money pit. Philipp Rösler, Germany’s minister of economics and technology, has called the spiraling solar subsidies a “threat to the economy.”
Germany’s enthusiasm for solar power is understandable. We could satisfy all of the world’s energy needs for an entire year if we could capture just one hour of the sun’s energy. Even with the inefficiency of current PV technology, we could meet the entire globe’s energy demand with solar panels by covering 250,000 square kilometers (155,342 square miles), about 2.6 percent of the Sahara Desert.
Unfortunately, Germany—like most of the world—is not as sunny as the Sahara. And, while sunlight is free, panels and installation are not. Solar power is at least four times more costly than energy produced by fossil fuels. It also has the distinct disadvantage of not working at night, when much electricity is consumed.
In the words of the German Association of Physicists, “solar energy cannot replace any additional power plants.” On short, overcast winter days, Germany’s 1.1 million solar-power systems can generate no electricity at all. The country is then forced to import considerable amounts of electricity from nuclear power plants in France and the Czech Republic.
Indeed, despite the massive investment, solar power accounts for only about 0.3 percent of Germany’s total energy. This is one of the key reasons why Germans now pay the second-highest price for electricity in the developed world (exceeded only by Denmark, which aims to be the “world wind-energy champion”). Germans pay three times more than their American counterparts.
Moreover, this sizeable investment does remarkably little to counter global warming. Even with unrealistically generous assumptions, the unimpressive net effect is that solar power reduces Germany’s CO2 emissions by roughly 8 million metric tons—or about 1 percent – for the next 20 years. To put it another way: By the end of the century, Germany’s $130 billion solar panel subsidies will have postponed temperature increases by 23 hours.
Using solar, Germany is paying about $1,000 per ton of CO2 reduced. The current CO2 price in Europe is $8. Germany could have cut 131 times as much CO2 for the same price. Instead, the Germans are wasting more than 99 cents of every euro that they plow into solar panels.
It gets worse: Because Germany is part of the European Union Emissions Trading System, the actual effect of extra solar panels in Germany leads to no CO2 reductions, because total emissions are already capped. Instead, the Germans simply allow other parts of the EU to emit more CO2. Germany’s solar panels have only made it cheaper for Portugal or Greece to use coal.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/project_syndicate/2012/02/why_germany_is_phasing_out_its_solar_power_subsidies_.html

Germans in positions of power are admitting that the nation has flubbed energy policy? Shocked



I mean I knew that in theory this day could come, but who would have expected it? Not that they will figure out in time what a national disaster shutting the nuclear plants will be mind you.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:26 am
Interesting to see that a French commission is recommending that France take the opposite tack of the Germans

Quote:
Extend the life of French nuclear power plants is the best solution to solve the energy challenges facing the country, which must keep in close prematurely reactors, experts have recommended in a report Monday, February 13 the government.
France must "s' prohibit any administrative closure of a nuclear plant " that has not been decided for safety reasons. "The optimal path for our country is to extend the life of existing plants as long as authority of the Nuclear Safety will " , considered members of the commission "Energy 2050" , in a report to the Minister for Energy, Eric Besson .

"THE FUTURE"

The commission also calls for preparing the construction of "a small number of EPR" (reactors 3 th generation) to compensate for the gradual closing of older plants, and that "to prepare the future by continuing to side development of renewable energies, development of generation 4 " plant, and "while leaving open the question of the nuclear share in 2050 and even 2030" . Moreover, these experts call France to 's' engage courageously in a policy of truth [that is to say higher] prices of energy and CO 2 " .

This panel, led by Professor Jacques Percebois and Claude Mandil , former executive director of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IEA), had been commissioned this fall by Mr. Besson to study the evolution scenarios French energy landscape, as part of the "multi-annual programming of energy investments" , ie the future energy policy of France, which must be presented to Parliament in 2013. Before it is brought to the baptismal font, the Committee had drawn the ire of environmentalists, and several NGOs sought by the government had refused to participate , finding its composition pronuclear outrageously, Greenpeace even speaking of "a new communication tool for the nuclear industry" .

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2012/02/13/des-experts-deconseillent-la-fermeture-prematuree-de-centrales-nucleaires_1642443_3234.html#ens_id=1504462

Translation by Google
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2012 08:44 am
It is doable!!
By a population of 82 mill. people, this is quite remarkable!

Quote:
Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power

German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity – equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity – through the midday hours of Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank has said ... Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50% of the nation's midday electricity needs.

That's right—half of all of Germany was powered by electricity generated by solar plants. That's incredible. It was also world record-breaking. Germany is pretty much singlehandedly proving that solar can be a major, reliable source of power—even in countries that aren't all that sunny.


http://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/half-germany-was-powered-solar.html
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2012 08:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The natural gas boom will be sustainable for at least a half cetury. GAs fired plants are the best option (as soon as we figger out how to make the extraction process anmd fracking more environmetally friendly)
STill, the overall risks from gas are about the elast of any fuel source.

I think Gemrany is counting on what scientists have said about the sustainability of nat gas as a bridge energy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2012 10:20 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Germany is cutting solar-power subsidies because they are expensive and inefficient
The government's proposed sharp cuts in solar subsidies have been suspended by German states represented in the upper house ("Bundesrat") in May with a 2/3 majority.
A mediation committee with members from both houses is reviewing the proposal.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2012 10:17 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

It is doable!!
By a population of 82 mill. people, this is quite remarkable!

Quote:
Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power

German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity – equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity – through the midday hours of Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank has said ... Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50% of the nation's midday electricity needs.

That's right—half of all of Germany was powered by electricity generated by solar plants. That's incredible. It was also world record-breaking. Germany is pretty much singlehandedly proving that solar can be a major, reliable source of power—even in countries that aren't all that sunny.


http://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/half-germany-was-powered-solar.html


Now without the spin

Quote:
Wind power currently produces about seven percent of Germany's total power
.
.
.
solar PV provided 18 TW·h (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

7+3=10%

Quote:
Nuclear power in Germany accounted for 17.7% of national electricity supply in 2011, compared to 22.4% in 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

Green energy will not replace nuclear in Germany in my lifetime.
0 Replies
 
Frankwall
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 05:55 am
That depends on how long you have left to live - of course green energy probably can't replace nuclear altogether, but a combination of green, coal, gas, oil working together would fill in for that 17% generated by the nuclear plant.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2012 08:47 pm
Quote:
Aug 14 (Reuters) - Germany's electricity prices risk becoming a burden for consumers as overly generous renewable power subsidies are passed on, European Energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger said in a German newspaper on Tuesday, demanding a price cap.

"When the new price for renewable subsidies (for 2013) becomes known in the autumn, we will have to talk about a limit," Oettinger told mass circulation Bild in an interview.

"Otherwise, the costs for (retail) customers and industry will run out of control," he said. "The expansion of solar and wind power must be linked to the corresponding expansion of transmission networks and storage plants."

Germany has the second highest power prices in Europe, mainly due to its high taxes and fees which include paying above-market rates for green power via so-called feed-in tariffs.

Transmission firms are due in October to present estimates for the 2013 surcharge to be added on for the funding of renewables.

Given record new solar power installations this year, they are likely to rise sharply when the new units start collecting their revenues.

An increase for the likely green power element next year is expected to rise to over 5 cents per kilowatt hour from 3.6 cents applied in 2012, which will put the government under pressure to find ways to mitigate the burden for users

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/14/europe-oettinger-industry-idUSL6E8JE1XQ20120814

somebody should tell the idiotic Germans that paying too much for unreliable electricity is bad for business. A country that largely sustains itself on industrial exports should care about this sort of thing.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 02:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
GAZprom is such a pack of bullshitters. They want to sit on their gas until the price rises and , for the long term, gas will continue to sink in price. GERMANY has'nt even explored sufficiently to develop its many gas basins.

NUKE power was only 19% of total energy and youll see t
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 03:01 pm
@farmerman,
PS, has all the disaster that the nuke industry predicted(Bayer and BMW are biiig investors thereof) , happened this winter???
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:06 pm
Quote:
In order to keep the power system stable, twenty power companies operating in Germany get paid for pledging to add or cut electricity within seconds, according to data from the nation’s four grid operators. The utility companies have gotten paid as much as 400 times the wholesale electricity price by participating in the balancing market. According to one grid operator, the increased intermittent renewable electricity production has resulted in five times as many potential disruptions as four years ago, raising the risk of blackouts and pushing wholesale prices to a nine-year low. Utilities are joining the balancing market as weak prices have cut operating margins to 5 percent on average from 15 percent in 2004. By joining the balancing market, companies are earning about 10 percent of their plant profits. In Germany’s daily and weekly balancing market auctions, utilities have been paid as much as 13,922 Euros to provide one megawatt of generating capacity on an as needed basis to stabilize the grid. Utility companies must be ready to provide power or cut output in notice periods of 15 minutes, 5 minutes or 30 seconds. These companies earn fees whether their services are needed or not.

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/germanys-electricity-market-balance-must-pay-flexible-back-power/

Yet another significant cost of the green energy dream. Closing the nukes plants early thus getting less return on the investment to build them than they should have gotten is another. The costs of all of the subsidies the build green energy is another. The cost of all of the new transmission lines is another. The cost of disruption in the manufacturing industry is another.

I hope it is worth it. How much are the warm fuzzies worth?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 04:04 am
@hawkeye10,
you seem to have convinced yourself that this is a disastrous decision, why?.
Combined cycle GAS power plants are like "boutique" generators . They can generate 900 mega watts in small park-like environment.
The new reality of clean gas is whats killing the nuke industry in the US. We are already moving ahead to shut down several dozen units rather than do the interminable "refit and relicensing" two step.Weve recognized that all nuke plants have a licensed life and what weve done is to go beyond those lives with relicensing (NOT REBUILDING). I think Germany realized that as part of it decision. How many of its plants come off license until 20122?
Yes the infrastructure of conversion is a challenge, but all gas sites will, no doubt be lined up along new gas lines and near rivers. "Tie In" solar ites can be located along existing grid routes. (Weve been doing that for several years in the US. Power companies are investing in "tie in" solar and wind (wind sites need to be optimized more than solar)

Nuke plants really are dinosaurs, and were an interim until fusion became a reality. I think that several countries (including Germany) have concluded that, and they realize that unless everyone converts to Thorium, we are all in the same environmental and safety boat (Where we demand modern efficiencies and security services from all these 50 year old paleo style plants)

I think, within 10 yer Germany will look back at the "chicken littles predictions" and see that they were far-horizon thinking.
0 Replies
 
 

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