cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 04:10 am
Too busy healing lepers and walking on water, that sort of thing.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 05:08 am
I wonder how your curriculum vitae looks like.
0 Replies
 
Col Man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 10:58 pm
phew i just read thru most of this topic
and i must say im not getting involved
believe what you want as long as you dont use it to hurt others
if it makes you feel good and gives you a sense of being...... thats great.... share it with others
its up to them to make of it what they will
each to his own
freedom for all
make love not war
thats what i say
have fun dudes and dudessess
byeeeeeeeeeee
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 11:08 pm
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
I wonder how your curriculum vitae looks like.


Thank god I'm my own boss, and prefer T.V. to a C.V. I get tons of resumes from cooks and service people, but I toss them out. If they are serious, they will call, and I'll meet them personally for a proper interview.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 08:39 am
I wonder what they'll think when they see Ronald McDonald with the large hips ('it are the pants that make me look fat'... yeah right... oh wait, that's another tread... never mind) on the other end of the table.
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 09:12 am
Steve,

Do you agree with my definition of a miracle that a prophet would have to bring?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 01:30 pm
Quote:
Steve,

A miracle has three characteristics:

1- It must break the laws of the universe(supernatural). Like a man just starts flying without anything.
2- It must be comprehendible to the people. The whole puropse of bringing the miracle is to prove his prophethood to the people. If the people do not understand it, then it has no purpose. He cannot establish his prophethood.
3- The person must claim this is his miracle to prove himself.

Do you agree with this??



Qkid

Yes I agree that the criteria above could be applied to miracles and prophets, if you believe in such things, and to stage magic tricks and magicians if you don't. I also note the self referencing argument in point 2. But as I think you are trying to tease out from me a simple yes no answer for the purpose of the argument I will say YES. Now what?
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2004 06:36 pm
Steve,

Believe me bro I am not teasing you. I told you at the very begining that I will be asking a series of questions and we can only move when each is answered. So we are here now. We see the criteria of someone claiming to be a prophet. They must bring a miracle. Then we stated the criteria for a miracle.

Remember the whole point of this? I was going to show that Prophet Muhammad pbuh is a true prophet. But I had to set the guidelines for a prophet at first.

Well if you look at history, do we know of any cases of so called prophets who meet this criteria? Yes, such as Moses pbuh and Jesus pbuh. During the time of Moses pbuh, magic was the thing. So one miracle he performed was when the magicians threw their staffs and it look like snakes but when Moses pbuh threw his staff it turned into an actual snake and swallowed the magicians fake snakes. It met the first criteria because noone can turn a stick into an actual snake. The people who first comprehended it was the magicians because they knew this couldnt be magic and Moses pbuh did claim to be a prophet. So all three criterias were met.

During the time of Jesus pbuh, medicine was the thing thriving. So Jesus pbuh did miracles relating to healing people and even bringing some back to life. Everyone understood it and he did claim to be a prophet.

These are just some examples of actual prophets that existed.
Any comments? Questions?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2004 05:52 am
Well firstly I did not use the word tease in the sense you used it. I know you are not playing tricks.

Its all a matter of faith. You believe in miracles, I don't. I believe God has given us the intellect to observe, think, theorise and make progress towards understanding the Universe, but I refuse to define what I mean by God.

I was looking at some pictures this morning from the Cassini Huygens spacecraft. Just what do you think Jesus Moses or Mohammed would have made of detailed pictures of the rings of Saturn? Would they think they had been out-miracled?

The Hubble space telescope has detected evidence of over 100 extra-solar planets last month. We are, in my opinion, on the brink of discovering extra-terrestrial life.

I really can't be bothered about mythical stories of sticks turning into snakes, especially when religious scholars themselves can't even agree on whether or not such stories are meant to be taken literally or not.

The real miracle is all around us. That is truly awesome and should kindle the spirit of the Divine in every thinking person.
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2004 11:29 am
Steve,

Ahhh yes. I see your point. To you these are just stories. I can understand that. If i were in your position I would say the same. My reason would be because these so called miracles by Jesus pbuh and Moses pbuh are not verifiable today. There is no way we can know for sure if they occured. Cant verify them.

But there is a miracle which we can verify even today. You can verify if it is a miracle. Can you guess what miracle I am talking about?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2004 03:26 pm
No, what is it?
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2004 08:57 am
Steve,

The miracle which prophet Muhammed pbuuh brought is the Qur'an. So whats next? We have to see how the Quran meets the criteria for a miracle right?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2004 02:22 pm
Well writing a book certainly is miraculous, especially if you are illiterate.

I'm sorry Qkid, I don't wish to be offensive to you or your religious beliefs, but i find NO organised religion has any relevance to my life.

In fact I find ALL organised religion to be detrimental to the welfare of mankind - and hence offensive to God.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jul, 2004 01:19 am
Steve

I totally agree with you that organized religion is pernicious. It may be, however, that such socio-psychological palliatives are an inevitable conjunct of the "cognitive abilities"of much of homo sapiens.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 11:09 pm
Qkid, or anyone else that would like to comment on the application of Sharia Law as it was applied in this unfortunate girls behalf.

Afghan girl, given as bride at 9, fights for divorce
Quote:
Court sides with husband who beat and chained her
Afghan girl, given as bride at 9, fights for divorce
By Sudarsan Raghavan
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS


KABUL, Afghanistan - Dusk crosses into night, and still Pekay isn't free. After a long day of walking from office to office, pleading with stubborn judges, her quest has failed: She's still married to her abusive husband.

Once again, her memories take control. Her father's selling her in marriage to a man five times her age to pay the rent; the beatings and sodomy that followed. She was 9 years old.

Her mind drifts toward suicide. She's tried twice - first with a knife, then with kerosene and a match.

Pekay is 13 now, one of thousands of girls and women who are trapped in forced marriages, caught between the rural, tribal and Islamic customs that ruled the country for centuries and the promise of a new Afghanistan ruled by laws that apply equally to everyone.

Domestic violence is widespread, but most cases never go to court. The laws are weak, and women stay silent out of fear or shame: Divorce disgraces the family and the tribe. Each year, scores of Afghan women escape bad marriages by setting themselves on fire or other forms of suicide.

The Muslim fundamentalist Taliban regime collapsed three years ago. Hamid Karzai has won the country's first presidential elections. Women, who couldn't leave their homes freely in the old Afghanistan, voted in droves.

Yet none of this momentous change has helped Pekay. Under Afghanistan's civil law, it's illegal for girls younger than 16 to marry. But the Supreme Court, led by conservative clerics and Islamic law, ruled that she can't get divorced, even from a violent child molester.

Her last hope is that Fazal Hadi Shinwari, the ultra-conservative chief justice of the Supreme Court, will reverse the decision.

"If he doesn't, I'll kill myself," said Pekay, who like many Afghans uses one name. "And I'll leave it up to God to punish the judges in the next world."

"Pay or give me your daughter"

Pekay is less than 5 feet tall and slight. Her nose is puffy and crooked from a thrashing. Her left cheekbone is higher than her right, as if a bone is out of place. Her lower lip is split.

She was smaller when she met Malik Muhammad four years ago. At 48, he was old enough to be her grandfather. He offered to rent a room in his house to Pekay's family.

Four months passed, and Muhammad never asked for the rent. Pekay's father, Muhammad Omar, was too poor to remind him. One day, Muhammad demanded the rent money: $80, a princely sum.

When Omar asked if he could pay in installments, Muhammad said, "You must pay me now or give me your daughter," Omar recalled. Four days later, Muhammad started planning a wedding.

"We had no choice," said Omar. "He was a Taliban intelligence agent. He was very powerful. He said if I didn't allow the marriage, he would take us to the Taliban central office and do the wedding there."

On her wedding night, Pekay was confused. Why was the man she called "uncle" taking her to his bedroom? Why was her mother so sad?

"I'll be back soon," she recalled telling her mother.

Smiling, she stepped in. Her new husband shut the door.

"I started to hear screams," recalled her mother, Qudbi. "I thought he was going to kill her."

The next morning, Muhammad refused to let Qudbi see Pekay. He'd chained her hands and legs to his bed, said Pekay. Four days later, he evicted her parents.

Pekay lived as a slave for the next 2 1/2 years. Muhammad locked her in a room, releasing her only to cook, clean and do the washing. He pounded her with sticks and rubber tubing. When he stopped beating her, he started raping her.

"I can't tell you what happened," Pekay said. "It's the type of thing that happens only with animals."

Muhammad, now 52, denies he abused Pekay, but his next-door neighbor, Zalmay Quasimi, remembers her screams.

A short man with chipped yellow teeth and a thick beard dyed black, Muhammad claims that Pekay is "15 or 16," not 13. Pekay's identity card proves otherwise.

"Physically her body is small, but she's older," said Muhammad, who wore a silver ring topped with a turquoise stone and a white skullcap. "She was fine in my bed. She never complained or told me she was very small.

"If she comes back, I'll get her pregnant."

Blood stained the floor

Fifteen months ago, Pekay's parents finally went to the police. Officers raided Muhammad's house and found Pekay and his first wife, Samar. Dried blood stained the floor and chains dangled from a bedpost, according to court documents. The police took Muhammad into custody.

But Afghanistan's legal system, a mix of civil and sharia, Islamic law, still favors men. Once Muhammad proved he was Samar's and Pekay's husband, he was released. Samar was told to go with him. Because of her age, Pekay was returned to her parents pending a court decision.

Pekay and her parents went to Kabul's family court to get a divorce. Muhammad, in court documents, called the allegations "a massive lie."

But in front of two female judges, Pekay undressed and showed the marks around her waist from the chain that Muhammed used to bind her.

The court, filled with progressive young judges, granted her a divorce. Pekay was ecstatic.

Her joy, and her freedom, soon vanished.

Muhammad appealed the decision. The appeals court ruled in his favor, as did the Supreme Court.

Pekay was ordered to return to her husband or go to jail.

Supreme Court Justice Sayeed Omar Munib explained that sharia allows a father to marry off his daughter even if she's under 16. And Pekay hadn't met the standard of evidence - two witnesses who saw the abuse or a confession from her husband.

When asked why he didn't rule according to Afghanistan's civil law, Munib replied: "In Islam and sharia, it's not like that. Women are very smooth operators. If we let her get a divorce, then women will be encouraged to divorce their husbands if they see another man they like. We'll have a lot of divorces in our society."

When asked if he believed that women and men have equal rights, as Afghanistan's constitution states, Munib replied: "It's impossible. We are Muslims, and God has given a place for men and a place for women. We can't change that. Women don't have the same brains like men. They are very forgetful. They can't make big decisions. You should ask your own Western doctors about this. It has been proven that women are not like men."

Chief justice intervenes

Friends of the family got Pekay an appointment with Chief Justice Shinwari. They were educated women and now had a voice, if a faint one, in the new Afghanistan. It took them weeks, but they finally got a meeting for Pekay.

Shinwari, also a cleric, dispensed justice according to strict sharia. But he looked at Pekay's face and body, and listened to Pekay's witnesses. After considering the evidence, he approved Pekay's divorce.

Muhammad, however, is determined to get Pekay back.

"I'll die before divorcing her," he said. "I can't force her to come back to my house, but I can make sure she won't marry again. One day she'll come back. She has to."
0 Replies
 
Cyanure
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 04:33 am
Hi mesquite

Quote:
Afghan girl, given as bride at 9, fights for divorce

I am wondering what do sick tribal traditions have to do with Islam?
Why do you judge a religion according to its people? Why not judging a religion according to its scripture?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 05:16 am
bm
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 01:08 pm
Cyanure wrote:
Hi mesquite

Quote:
Afghan girl, given as bride at 9, fights for divorce

I am wondering what do sick tribal traditions have to do with Islam?
Why do you judge a religion according to its people? Why not judging a religion according to its scripture?


Did I judge? I asked for comments about Sharia law and how it was applied. Mixing law and religion is a recipe for disaster IMO. Seeing as tribal traditions, law, and Islam are all intertwined, I suspect this sort of thing is not an unusual occurrence.

Quote:
Supreme Court Justice Sayeed Omar Munib explained that sharia allows a father to marry off his daughter even if she's under 16. And Pekay hadn't met the standard of evidence - two witnesses who saw the abuse or a confession from her husband.

When asked why he didn't rule according to Afghanistan's civil law, Munib replied: "In Islam and sharia, it's not like that. Women are very smooth operators. If we let her get a divorce, then women will be encouraged to divorce their husbands if they see another man they like. We'll have a lot of divorces in our society."


My guess is that most abusive husbands do not invite two witnesses to the event.
0 Replies
 
Isha
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:55 pm
That's the way I look when my sacral iliac joint gives out ! (lol)

But ok, it does kind of look like a person, bent over, but it could be getting ready to puke, bow after a performance, get a rectal exam, and yes, even in worship and prayer.

Nice pics, nice words...Hamid....but what is that alligator/human thingy?
0 Replies
 
Cyanure
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 04:12 am
Quote:
Supreme Court Justice Sayeed Omar Munib explained that sharia allows a father to marry off his daughter even if she's under 16. And Pekay hadn't met the standard of evidence - two witnesses who saw the abuse or a confession from her husband.

When asked why he didn't rule according to Afghanistan's civil law, Munib replied: "In Islam and sharia, it's not like that. Women are very smooth operators. If we let her get a divorce, then women will be encouraged to divorce their husbands if they see another man they like. We'll have a lot of divorces in our society."

mesquite, this rubbish has nothing to do with the Islamic Law and has no Qur'anic base. People tend to legalize their tribal behaviors by saying it's the Islamic law.
The Islamic Law is based on the Noble Qur'an detailed in the authentic prophet sayings. The only Authentic source in Islam is the Noble Qur'an. The Sunna contains tons of rubbish written and inserted during the Ummayad and Abbasid era. The holy prophet warned us about this issue.
Any saying that condradicts the Noble Qur'an should be rejected. The only acceptable sayings are only those that agree with the Noble Qur'an.
You can read more about this here:
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/creed_of_shia_explained/en/chap2.php
0 Replies
 
 

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