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Rovers on Mars

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:17 pm
@engineer,
space exploration has never been a choice about a national hobby. It began as a weapon was turned into a vehicle because our nation felt that it was again threatened.

Usually all advances have some need that spurs em on. Space included.

When China lands on the moon, claims its helium 3, we will probably have another panic program to "be first to develop a casino on Mars"
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 01:02 pm
@engineer,
I disagree with your apparent belief that space exploration is less important than every shirt term, practical program. It's a good thing that some people have been willing to support long term research for its own sake, or we'd be living in very primitive conditions.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:10 pm
@rosborne979,
Many planetologists believe that the surface sands and dusts of Mars are heavy with salts, and so far, the scant data we have bears them out. Brine might not necessarily be ubiquitous, but if those ladies and gentlemen are correct, than any liquid water on the surface would rapidly become salty. The highest daytime temperatures on Mars will be in the southern hemisphere in summer, and as it is now southern hemisphere spring, Curiosity may have found briny water because it is now just melting out of the upper levels of the regolith. Day time high temperatures south of the Martian equator in Martian summer can reach almost 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm not exactly certain what daytime highs are right now, but above freezing may well be the case.

Schiaparelli's telescope (and most people's telescopes then and for decades to come) did not have the resolution to give them enough detail to distinguish liquid hyrological flow from glacial flow. He did the best with what he had available. I don't have enough information to comment on whether the channels he identified were from liquid water or glaciers. Operating in good faith, Schiaparelli had thought the four huge albedo features on and near the Tharsis plateau were lakes--and so he named them: Olympus Lacus, Arsia Lacus, Phoenicis Lacus and Ascraeus Lacus. By the mid-20th century, some obervatories had begun to suspect that those albedo features were perhaps higher elevations, because their time-lapse photography seemed to show moving shadows. Some were confident enough to rename Schiaparelli's lakes, calling them Olympus Mons, Arsia Mons, Pavonis Mons (i don't know why they changed the name from phoenix to peacock) and Ascraeus Mons. Mariner 4, which flew by Mars in 1965, confirmed that they are mountains, extinct volcanoes, in fact. They are the largest mountains and volcanoes in the solar system, by orders of magnitude--Olympus Mons is more than a hundred times as massive as Mauna Loa, the largest volcano on our planet.

Schiararelli's telescope lacked the resolution to tell him that the flow channels he saw were in canyons. I don't believe that right now anyone would tell with any certainty if the flow created the canyons or if the canyons channeled the flows. Schiaparelli (and most other astronomers) were completely unaware of the massive canyon system which stretches east from the southeast edge of the Tharsis plateau and which has been named, within the last 50 years, the Valles Marineris, in honor of the humble little robots which first photographed Mars from close range. Schaparelli named one pattern of flows Noctis Labyrinthus (the Labyrinth of Night) rather fancifully, certainly, but because of the way the channels wove together. I don't believe he had any idea that it was a deep, narrow canyon running hundreds of kilometers.

The Valles Marineris are even more impressive. If the western end were laid on Portland, Oregon, the southeastern end would reach Miami. In the Melas Chasma, if you were standing in the middle, you would not see the cliffs either to north or south, even though they are more than 10,000 feet high. Liquid or glacial, it was a gargantuan flood which once carved the channels in this canyon system. Even this incredibly vast canyon system was not discovered until 1971 or -72.

For all that we've been exploring this neighbor of ours for half a century, we know so very little about it. We may never go there (meaning those of us chewing the fat here), but there will be many new things to learn and many surprises even in the short times we still have on this Earth.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:12 pm
We could support a very large human population on the water known to be in the north polar cap. The big problem would be soil--we'd have to take that with us, and it could be generations, even centuries, before we could start manufacturing soil out of Martian resources.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:21 pm
@engineer,
The entire early space program--Mercury, Gemini and Apollo--which took us to the moon, cost less than the average cost of a year of war in Vietnam. Automated space exploration is an extremely cheap endeavor, and it's payoffs are enormous. The space program had give us so much technology that would never have been developed to fight some dirty little war to put a few bucks in the pockets of capitalists. Anyone who doesn't recognize what fantastic investments the various space programs have been is indeed short-sighted.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:26 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
The entire early space program--Mercury, Gemini and Apollo--which took us to the moon, cost less than the average cost of a year of war in Vietnam.

And we spend about a trillion a year on defense with one space shuttle launch costing $1.3 billion. But the trillion is a lot easier to get approved. And I dont see this changing anytime soon.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:33 pm
It's been more than four years since a space shuttle was launched--it was know to be the last mission for that vehicle, too. You don't keep up, do you? Unmanned missions cost fractions of the cost of a few days with a shuttle. Wars are even more expensive, but i don't recall you shooting your mouth off about those costs. NASA's projects have their own lobbyists because some people do profit from the space industry. They won't get the big bucks, but they won't go away either. As usual, your attempt to sound knowing just exposes your ignorance.

http://scienceogram.org/media/2015/07/scienceogram-space-missions-cost-new-horizons-1.0.png
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 05:56 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
It's been more than four years since a space shuttle was launched

Of course. Neither of us are stupid so dont act like you are.

Another huge problem is that due to regulation costs and bureaucratic sludge costs getting anything done these days needs a ton of money. The entire project to get to the moon cost less than $150 billion in todays dollars, yet one single launch of the shuttle was costing us $1.3 billion. The space station has cost over $150 billion but it is almost completely useless for a whole bunch of reasons, to include the fact that the global community only pays to keep 3 people on it.

What would a moon shot cost today following all the rules and letting NASA do it? $500 billion maybe?

We are not going to Mars in the next 50 years regardless of what you hear from NASA and Washington. You guys read too much Science Fiction and dont pay enough attention to the news.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 06:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
You're a f*cking idiot, and don't try to make out that i am. No one here has said anything about going to Mars. This thread is about robot exploration of Mars. Try to keep up, Bright Boy.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 08:48 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You're a f*cking idiot, and don't try to make out that i am. No one here has said anything about going to Mars. This thread is about robot exploration of Mars. Try to keep up, Bright Boy.

Ya am in the wrong thread. Whatever. All you boys are also sure that America cares about this stuff, and that we will at some point decide to so something interesting with maned flight, you know, that segment of NASA that gotten most of the attention of what NASA has done. But we will not, and the fact that regulation and the courts letting just about every hillbilly object to progress is massively driving up costs is a big part of the reason.

And I will never agree with your assertion that you are smarter than me either asshole, just so that we are clear about that.

Quote:
And so it goes, it turns out, with high-speed rail. Ranging from 6 million euros per kilometer (for the Madrid-Seville line, opened in 1992) to nearly 19 million euros (for the Madrid-Valladolid one), nobody builds a kilometer of high-speed rail at a lower cost than Spain, a report by the state-owned infrastructure manager ADIF found.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/spain-high-speed-train-toronto-commuter-new-york-elevators

Quote:
California wants to build a true high-speed rail line between San Francisco and Los Angeles, capable of top speeds of 220 miles per hour and average speeds of 140 miles per hour. The environmental analysis report for the California high-speed rail projects costs of $33 billion for 400 miles, while the Midwest Rail Initiative projects costs of $7.7 billion for 3,150 miles of moderate-speed rail. That's $82 million per mile for true high-speed rail (partly because the California project goes through some mountains) and only $2.4 million for moderate-speed rail

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-true-cost-of-a-high-speed-rail-for-the-us-is-more-than-500-billion-2009-5
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2015 02:41 am
You certainly are out of your league. Go trash a different thread.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2015 04:04 am
@Setanta,
I think he sums up that he's the smartest kid in his "class". He always ends his tripe with Vote Trump. That sums it up pretty well.
--------------------------------
Anytime anyone says that,

"This will never happen",

only proves the point that it will.
A Lunar mission with longer residency will probably happen within the next 100 years or so. The development of fusion power based on a double (He 3) cross section will produce about the largest amounts of energy for all the known fusion reactions. (Weve been ******* around with Li reactions in research labs and thats kind of a first step only). Welearned a lot about underestimating thee reactions from our H bomb tests
As a result of our evolution as a species--the harvest of off planet resources (like He3) will become a "trip to the grocers" and missions to the moon with technical /engineering colonies on the surface of the moon will become a gimme. Will it be industry or govt that takes the steps? Im betting on the next batch of "Williams Brothers, or Chesapeake Resources" will be mining helium from the moons surface and from small lunar research fission reactors. This will happen as we run down on fuels in the 2100's and beyond. So the next step, (MARS) will probably become an investment grade debenture for which industrial bonds will be sold (and unless we blow our asses up) will be backed by consortia of nations

Course, I could be wrong about the time if we get overrun by crazy Muslims who have a particular affinity with stone age technology .

Anyway, What the hell is 100 years, or even 1000? Noone here has even imagined what the longer term future will be capable of.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2015 04:10 am
We should turn Mars over to the Japanese. Give 'em a few centuries to decide if there is life capable of meaningful evolution, and then, if they want, give ém a few thousand years to terraform Mars . . . or not, maybe a few centuries to figure out how human beans can live there without screwing things up for the aboriginal life forms.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 02:52 am
Does anyone know off-hand if Curiosity is equipped to analyze soil samples? I don't necessarily mean to look for living organisms, although that would be really cool, but just to examine the water and the ground it is running over?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 03:06 am
Looking around for an answer to my own question, i came across this:

Curiosity rover already on red planet cannot study streaks left by flowing water because it could be carrying bugs from Earth

The big dummies!
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 07:18 am
@Setanta,
NASA (and scientists in general) play their cards very close to their chest and have always been very hesitant to make firm statements about the possibility of life on Mars. But unless I'm imagining things, I'm detecting a distinct change of behavior from the scientists after this latest announcement. Just as in poker, we can get a glimpse behind their cards if we watch their actions, and it seems to me as if they are now acting like they think there's a reasonable possibility of extant life on Mars.

They sent Curiosity to Mars without sterilizing it completely which indicates they were on the "no life" side of the fence when Curiosity was sent. But now they won't let it anywhere near those slushy seeps for fear of contaminating them, which seems like they've switches sides of the fence.

They won't say it in front of the cameras, and I wouldn't either, but I think that they think there's life up there. Methane belching, slush slurping Mars Microbes hiding under the surface. (it should be noted that I usually lose in Poker, so I'm probably completely wrong)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 11:24 am
@rosborne979,
Not addressed to me, Rosborne...but...

Quote:
...so I'm probably completely wrong.


I don't think so. I don't think you are wrong.

I think there has been "a change in behavior."

Not that I think any scientist is going to come out soon and say there is life on Mars...but that is not what you were suggesting.

I think vocalizing the notion THERE MAY BE life on Mars...seems to be less guarded among scientific peers than previously.

I know they have to work carefully...and I know all the impediments in their way, but I sure hope they come up with more before I shed this mortal coil.

I am loving this...and the useful information being shared here in this thread more than you can imagine.


0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 02:14 pm
@rosborne979,
I think you've got a point. What frosts my gonads is that they've been sending missions to Mars for fifty years, it's not as though this problem wasn't brought up in the past. It could be bean counters, too, behind the unwillingness to take the necessary precautions. Either way, a huge opportunity was lost this go-round.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 02:22 pm
@Setanta,
Yeh, I don't know the inner workings of NASA or how they make their decisions, but I'm sure money has a LOT to do with everything.

I think it's interesting to watch the behavior change in the scientists and where their focus is now.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 02:24 pm
I'm not holding my breath, but it would be wonderful if they ran a rover through an autoclave and then sent it to Gale Crater.
 

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