Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

@Leadfoot,

I have no shame in saying I am an atheist. But somehow it feels like I am admitting Im gay or black or something shameful to a part of society that will enevitably hate me. Is that really the truth? Or is it just a misconception by me of what society may or may not think? Idk.

2 Replies

@Lilkanyon,

Lilkanyon wrote:

I have no shame in saying I am an atheist. But somehow it feels like I am admitting Im gay or black or something shameful to a part of society that will enevitably hate me. Is that really the truth? Or is it just a misconception by me of what society may or may not think? Idk.

I went to atheist websites and for the most part, they villified religion...and I disagreed with that as well. I have no hatred for a love of God. I only pity those that use Gods name as an excuse to hate.

0 Replies

@Lilkanyon,

Quote:

I have no shame in saying I am an atheist. But somehow it feels like I am admitting Im gay or black or something shameful to a part of society that will enevitably hate me. Is that really the truth? Or is it just a misconception by me of what society may or may not think? Idk.

Yes, I think you have a misconception. At the current time (at least in the Western world) it is quite fashionable to be gay, black or atheist. Not shameful at all.

0 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

When the story teller admits that it's fiction, it removes any question of it's nonexistence.
It might not make it true when someone professes to believe something, but the question of whether it exists or not remains.

No a question only remains if you ask it. The fact of openly inventing a story does not make the falsity of its information inherent and absolute. If you question and research hard enough, the possibility remains the information was true, regardless of the author's belief. Belief has no bearing on truth. Ancient people genuinely believed the stories of gods on mount Olympus and in Valhalla and all the rest. They have never been disproved, and new religions have never been proved, so why do we not question ancient religions' truth now?

1 Reply

@kency123,

Quote:

The fact of openly inventing a story does not make the falsity of its information inherent and absolute.

That's your logical defense?

Which is more likely to be true.

A. A story that I tell you up front is from my imagination.
B. A belief that I tell you I have no doubt about.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Which is more likely to be true.
A. A story that I tell you up front is from my imagination.
B. A belief that I tell you I have no doubt about.

Option B is a contradiction; to 'believe' by definition means you do not know, and therefore cannot genuinely have no doubt. If there were no doubt it would be fact, and fact requires evidence.

If B is fact it is more likely to be true. If B is a belief, the question is not answerable. A and B are then both unproven information and probability can only be calculated on their individual attributes.

Which is more likely?
A. My imagined story that my neighbor had pasta for lunch today.
B. My strong belief that the spirits of my late family are watching me.

1 Reply

@kency123,

Quote:

Option B is a contradiction; to 'believe' by definition means you do not know, and therefore cannot genuinely have no doubt. If there were no doubt it would be fact, and fact requires evidence.

Since this exercise in logic is not about religion (as you keep trying to make it) B could be about my faith that electrons exist, for which there is mountains of evidence.

There is no contradiction inherent in B.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Since this exercise in logic is not about religion

The entire thread is called Why believe in god.....

1 Reply

@kency123,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"Since this exercise in logic is not about religion"

The entire thread is called Why believe in god.....

Was talking about the sub-thread we were on and how to apply logic to finding the answer to 'Why believe in God'. Do you think logic does not apply there?

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Forgive me I didn't know we were on a sub thread here. To carry your point about elections.

I would say "I believe in electrons" only to emphasize I've never seen or tested one. My belief is firmly based on logic for several reasons - I know electrons were discovered using the scientific method, i.e. rigorous testing and evidence. Electrons are universally agreed upon by scientists, who examine, test and use them. A scientist today would have more to gain by proving the nonexistence of electrons so this would be their logical action if it were possible. There appears to be no reasoning for this at the moment as knowledge is so strong.

So, this is the logic behind my belief in electrons; assumed knowledge based on reason.

1 Reply

@kency123,

That's all well and good but you did not address (purposely avoided?) my question about using the same logic and reason to find out if a belief in God could be equally valid.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Based on my logic (and, incidentally, the topic of the thread) it is the theist who needs to be answering the questions here. There is no evidence to justify religious belief, and any religious person with two brain cells to rub together will freely admit that they have a BELIEF , not KNOWLEDGE. I've already give a whole heap of other reasons so I'll let you read back up the thread.

So, what's your logic for god?

3 Replies

@kency123,

You speak of belief as if you yourself do not have it. We all have our belief systems my friend, a scientist for instance has to learn to trust information that he his self has not verified, he learns through study and gathers information that he uses as a fabric to build his world view from, this is no different to a theist. We all gather information, and each of us takes different measures to test that information as to whether we accept or reject it, that is why we each have such different views of the world around us. There may only be one truth and we each have differing degrees of a grasp on it, influenced by our preconceived biases, cultural and social nurturing as well as emotional response.
Though many are endeavouring to gain a better grasp of what truth is, this does not mean that they will each reach the same conclusions. One who has a different world view to yourself does not necessarily lack a logical approach to his findings, just as one who agrees with you may well be wanting. The key is that just because it is not apparent to yourself, this does not mean it is not there.

Your assertion is that there is no evidence (data that could lead one to a conclusion) to justify a religious belief is a positive statement. Keep in mind that not all are born to the world view they hold, some examine the available date in the world around them and are led to a belief in intelligent design, religion or perhaps the flying spaghetti monster. Regardless of how crackpot the belief another may hold is, the correct assertion to make is that no evidence that you have previously examined has been sufficient to convince you that there is any truth to the religious beliefs you have observed

I would hazard a room full of 100 intelligent men would quarrel far more than a room with 100 simpletons. Worse still is the room full of simpletons who believe they are intelligent men, welcome to the internet.

That aside, you're right in that the thread is about the reasons theists hold for their systems of belief, so I'll not get in the way of the conversation. Please forgive my intrusion

2 Replies

@kency123,

Previously you said:

Quote:

I would say "I believe in electrons" only to emphasize I've never seen or tested one. My belief is firmly based on logic for several reasons -

This time you said:

Quote:

any religious person with two brain cells to rub together will freely admit that they have a BELIEF , not KNOWLEDGE.

So you freely admit that there is potentially no difference between your belief in the unseen electron and the theists' belief in an unseen God This assumes of course that the theist has observed the rules of logic.

From this theist's perspective, I'm saying that the rules of reason and logic do apply to why we would believe in God.

0 Replies

@kency123,

Quote:

So, what's your logic for god?

Time is short this AM so this will have to be the Cliff Notes version.

I assume that a God who cared about our existence would leave some sign or indication of what he was about. Having examined as many of the possibilities as I could, the legend of Christ seems the most consistently logical. In the signs and evidence passed down to us of this God and legend, there are a large number of statements, promises, and axioms which are testable (found true or false) by anyone capable of conscious thought.

A single result is not enough to go on but I have not found any of those promises, principles and axioms not to be true so far. This is enough to make me as convinced of God's existence as I am of the electron's.

1 Reply

@Smileyrius,

Quote:

Please forgive my intrusion

My friend, your observation have always been a most welcome addition to the conversation. Intrude any time Smile

0 Replies

@Smileyrius,

Quote:

We all have our belief systems my friend, a scientist for instance has to learn to trust information that he his self has not verified,

My friend, this is exactly the point I was making. My beliefs are based on reason and probability. If a friend tells me he had pizza for lunch, sure I'd believe him; a reliable source; a logical and reasonable claim; no reason to lie. I cannot be 100% undoubting, but there's no reason to dwell on the possibility he's lying. If he said he had 100 pizzas for lunch, I'd need more explanation, or evidence, before I could be more believing of it. Science has no interest in false claims which is why I think it is logical to believe it, not to mention the rather fundamental scientific method. I don't believe everything all scientists say without question but normally there is little reason to think they are making it up, so I believe them.

The OPPOSITE is true of religion. It must suppress assumptions that challenge its truths, unlike science which is founded on it. And this is one of the reasons why I don't believe any religions - not just because I haven't seen enough evidence for them to be true - but because I see evidence to suggest they are even less probable. Another example, Christ's message didn't get to the Australian aboriginals, Buddha's message not to Europeans or the Aztecs, Mohammed's not to the Amazon, or native Americans, or Japan - and so on. The roman gods died out, as did the Greek gods, and the gods of the ancient celtic tribes. If any of these religions were true, and there was a god with an active interest in human lives, how can these vast differences be explained? "Thou shalt worship no other god but me?" Which one are you?

I can't prove there isn't a god, but I have no reason to worship one, or significant enough reason for me to believe there is one. It is only in the past few centuries that explanations for our existence and what lies beyond what we can see have been given without religious logic - and it has taken a lot for the church to back down and admit that it isn't the source of all knowledge having had to suppress the growth of science in the renaissance. A few hundred years ago I myself probably would have been religious because I could not comprehend how there can be any other explanation. But since we've kept discovering more and more truths beyond what we thought possible, there are so many "unknown unknowns" awaiting us and I don't want us to give up on discovery by explaining it all away with a god just like that - and certainly not one of the thousands of religions on offer.

0 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

the legend of Christ seems the most consistently logical. In the signs and evidence passed down to us of this God and legend, there are a large number of statements, promises, and axioms which are testable (found true or false) by anyone capable of conscious thought.

I'm not sure what you mean as the legend being testable? The history or the teachings? Jesus did exist and said (or was quoted to have said) some great things, I think it undermines his bravery as a revolutionary to say it's because he was son of a god. I don't know if he thought himself divine; I have a guess that, just like was common in the middle ages, he saw his ideas as divine intervention. How can I believe something so different, so strongly, without it coming from god? But which of the many accounts of his life selected for the bible were decided centuries later, and this simply can't be without bias. So, big respect for Jesus. But I can't believe him divine.

1 Reply

@kency123,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"the legend of Christ seems the most consistently logical. In the signs and evidence passed down to us of this God and legend, there are a large number of statements, promises, and axioms which are testable (found true or false) by anyone capable of conscious thought. "

I'm not sure what you mean as the legend being testable? The history or the teachings?

I meant that the statements and promises that are made in that legend were testable. For just one example, one passage in the bible (part of the legend) says that if seeking God is the first priority in your life, everything else you need will be given to you. Finding out if there was a God and what life was all about WAS the most important thing to me even before I picked up a bible so this was an easy one to check.

I never looked for a job, they always found me. I am as unmotivated and unambitious guy as you will ever meet and yet I became CEO of a successful company. That was one test that I verified as true. There are numerous others, too many to have been a coincidence. I never found one not to be true.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I never looked for a job, they always found me. I am as unmotivated and unambitious guy as you will ever meet and yet I became CEO of a successful company. That was one test that I verified as true.

Haha right ok Leadfoot I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree here cos we're on such different wavelengths this debate will go on for eternity. If eternity exists that is...

1 Reply

Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know