Good Religion, Bad Religion

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Is there really anything left that is considered good in religion? What is the litmus test for good or bad religion? I have indicated in other discussions that I am an agnostic and not necessarily an atheist. BUT... I absolutely loath organized religions of all forms. I no longer find a single religion worthy of my heart and soul. I lump religion with "bad history" also, where, conquerors are hailed as heroes rather then the bloodthirsty war mongering killers that they were. Where war is a response to one religion and yet fought in the name of another religion disguised as high minded ideals.

Science has provided such an eloquent alternative to religion and in retrospect was there anything of value whatsoever left behind? Are these holy books nothing more than pathetic and useless relics of our dismal and shameful human past?

The goddess of wisdom, breaking of bread, prayer, the patience of Job, suffering martyrs, angels... etc... Is there nothing sacred and worthy that in the end religion has contributed to humanity that we can't gain an understanding of elsewhere without the dogma of some god?

I scratch my head and draw a blank. Should science totally eclipse faith? If not, then what is there in faith worthy of salvation? It seems the reverse these days that religion needs salvation and not humanity. Do any possible remnants of faith and doctrine require the guise of God to make them appear valid?

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@RexRed,

Nice question !

Religion, as we know it, serves psychological, sociological and political purposes.
If we dump the concept of a deity/creator ,the issue is whether those needs can be adequately served . The danger is that one of the three becomes dominant. For example the psychological urge to "control" falls on the shoulders of parochial scientists, since the big controller in the sky has been fired. Or perhaps political demi-gods/despots take the place of a celestial figure.
IMO, it is in the macro-sociological realm....that of the relationship between "self" and "all others" ... where some form of non-theistic "spirituality" may still validly hold sway...i.e. the attempt to negate or superceed evolutionary competitiveness at least within our own species in order that the whole species survives...call it "spiritual humanism" if you like. However, tribal interests, reified by tribal religions continue to dominate and negate such a hypothetical pragmatic form of "holistic spirituality", so the outlook remains bleak.

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@RexRed,

Interesting questions, which like to answer even though I am more practical than philosofical.
Of course there is something good in religion, just as there is in politics, philosophy or what ever we like to follow. It is not the idea which is bad it is how it is misused by people.

You loath organized religions. How would you imagen an unorganized religion?
How would theologians get their education? Where would people meet and what kind of crap could anybody who says he is a preacher preach?
I find there are - within Christianity - a lot of un- and organized denominations I would never ever follow. I am a member of the Lutheran Church in Sweden and think they have done a good job in many areas.

We cannot blame religion for all wars. Most wars have been started by politics, wish of power, more land, hate to another people and or race. But of course also another religion.
Take certain politics, which have forbidden any form of religion in their country and put the dictator as the God.

Now I have not read all books directing us into religion. I know more or less only my Jewish/Catholic/Lutheran background and with that I don´t mean my own life, but the church I belong to which goes back that far. Many of the good things which we have today regarding fair laws, social benefits for poor and sick, education etc etc are based on what the Bible teaches us.
It was on the Christian ideas that fair laws were made centuries ago and developed into our lifetime.

People like symbols. There are lots of wordly symbols. Just we like to call them logos. Nike shoes, Crocodile shirts, Five rings for the Olymbic Games.
So just like wordly symbols we like Christian symbols.
I like a church service with its symbols, its music and colours.

I think you are a searcher and you might/ might not find what you are looking for. If not ........
If there is a God, he probably find you and your questions more interesting than some selfmade preacher´s talk. So he might let you search for lifetime because you are more interested in religion than some real religious nuts.

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Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Comment: How can we not be tossed to and fro when we see young children being indoctrinated. Religion paints a face of love for god then it brainwashes young children to hate. I cannot find a place in my heart for these Gods any longer.

Religion is poison. How can any good ever come of this?

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@RexRed,

Have you ever heard of A Course in Miracles? The book itself is over 900 very thin pages. There's no way to explain what's inside of this book that lists no authors. It's incredibly complex, hence it's usually taught as a class. I finally bought this hefty book, have read about 50 pages, mostly by reading a couple paragraphs, then backing up and reading those paragraphs again 3, 4 times. I may finish it by the year 2525. I love it, and don't know what I used to think about through my days & years. I think the Unity church is now teaching it in their ministerial college in Unity Village, Missouri. Don't know about Unitarian.

This sort of teaching brings together science and spirituality. It's not a good thing to get rid of religion and then just create this void, where anything can come to roost. We have to search for our answers, keep studying.

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@RexRed,

Rex Red
you generelazi (spelling) religions to be brainwashing people. In every group of religion and also politics there are fanatics. These fanatics are minorities and have to be convinced that what they are doing is wrong.
Catholics and also Lutherans don´t mind doubters and as far as I know even Luther was a doubter now and then.
All we can do is to live and try to influence - if we can - fanatics about what is wrong. Not only in religion but also in politics and there we have a greater chance by voting.

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@Pemerson,

Unitarianism is a nontrinitarian Christian theology which holds that God is only one Person, in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity (God as three Persons in the unity of one Godhead)

Unitarianism (capitalized) has come to be associated with certain liberal Christian beliefs. The uncapitalized term, unitarianism, while denoting adherence to the teaching of the singularness of God, includes beliefs generally similar to those of conservative, evangelical Christians (apart from the Trinity). This form of unitarianism is more commonly called nontrinitarianism. There are also nontrinitarians who maintain that God is a single person, but also that Jesus is that God, and who therefore are distinct from unitarians, who reject the divinity of Jesus.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Rex Red
you generelazi (spelling) religions to be brainwashing people. In every group of religion and also politics there are fanatics. These fanatics are minorities and have to be convinced that what they are doing is wrong.
Catholics and also Lutherans don´t mind doubters and as far as I know even Luther was a doubter now and then.
All we can do is to live and try to influence - if we can - fanatics about what is wrong. Not only in religion but also in politics and there we have a greater chance by voting.

I thank you for your input and perhaps I do generalize in too many ways. I too was raised a Lutheran although when my family moved to Maine we had to travel far to the nearest Lutheran church so my parents decided to take us to the Congregationalist church instead. It was my father who was a Lutheran and he was also a high level Shriner as my mother was in the Eastern Star. How my parents reconciled having two religions in one mind (masonic and Lutheran) I will never understand.

Although the congregationalist churches were mild and in Sunday school I remember having a love for Jesus instilled within myself, they were hardly at the time accepting of homosexuals. This today is perhaps a litmus test as to whether a church is loving by the way they treat homosexuals. For in order for them to love homosexuals they have to set aside many of the bible's teachings.

As for Martin Luther my historical knowledge of him is spotty but I did spend much time studying him. If I am not mistaken, the roman catholic inquisition sought after him and in declaring him a heretic wanted him dead... even up until the very end of Martin's life. Had it not been for a certain secular king who hid Martin away the Lutheran church would not exist today.

The roman catholic church forbid the printing press just as the Mormons tried to expunge the free press here in the USA.

Again it was secularists and loyalists that drove the Mormons out to Utah. It seems sadly that fanatics go hand in hand with religion. Whether if they hijack these religions or simply are bred by religion itself is a matter all in itself. For the Bible, Koran and Hebrew scriptures all have radical writings within them and to endorse a book and then not expect their radical writings to not produce well, "radicals" is foolhardy at best.

I was taught that Martin Luther protested the Catholic church when I was young. Thus the word protestant was coined. But in my adult years I was taught another meaning for the word protestant. That it does not mean that Martin Luther was simply a protester but the he was "pro testament". In other words he was [for (pro), the written word (testament)] over that of the pope's word. Yet the more Martin studied the Greek and Hebrew scriptures then many theological contradictions arose in his writings and considerations. Thus he even doubted his own thesis. I was also taught that he insisted that his religion (Lutheranism) not be canonized yet after his death that is exactly what the church fathers did. Thus instead of the church fathers leaving Martins church as a dynamic evolving church, they froze in stone the seeming errors that Martin himself struggled with.

Yes today the roman Catholics seem on the surface interested in discussion and reason as they pour billions of dollars into their political agendas here in the states. They are still as a whole not, a small fringe group of a few fanatics trying to reign in on America's liberties and secular freedoms but many fanatics. Rather than simply preaching the good news and letting the message of Christ go where it may they are still today forcing their ideas upon the masses. The roman Catholics silenced the Gnostics with their murderous inquisitions and sought to do the same to Luther. With Luther and his "pro testament" now canonized through the Lutheran church fathers then this may even pose an even greater threat to liberty and human freedom.

Lutheranism was also seen as a threat to America's secular government by The United States founding fathers.

It would be nice if we could just round up all the radicals and have them silence their tirades but it seems these pro testaments and pro popes have created more radicals than moderates. Perhaps that is the very nature of the beast.

It seems Jesus if he was even a real historical figure and not just invented by political rulers tried to impart a social message. If that social message was ever allowed to actually flow to the masses is entirely debatable.

I tend to think that Jesus message was long contrived before it ever reached the new testament. It might be more closer to the truth that Jesus was probably crucified for rejecting these silly Gods altogether. Let that be a resounding wake up call.

Did Jesus actually say love God with all your heart or did he just say, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR...

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@Pemerson,

Pemerson wrote:

Have you ever heard of A Course in Miracles? The book itself is over 900 very thin pages. There's no way to explain what's inside of this book that lists no authors. It's incredibly complex, hence it's usually taught as a class. I finally bought this hefty book, have read about 50 pages, mostly by reading a couple paragraphs, then backing up and reading those paragraphs again 3, 4 times. I may finish it by the year 2525. I love it, and don't know what I used to think about through my days & years. I think the Unity church is now teaching it in their ministerial college in Unity Village, Missouri. Don't know about Unitarian.

This sort of teaching brings together science and spirituality. It's not a good thing to get rid of religion and then just create this void, where anything can come to roost. We have to search for our answers, keep studying.

One of my best friends is a Unitarian and they are wonderful to converse with. They also are a cross dresser and live their life as a female. They are also permitted to occasionally preach sermons at the Unitarian church. I don't know that I am ready to go back to any formalized religion. Basically because I studied the scriptures till I had a very large amount of them nearly memorized. I don't like much of what I have read in the scriptures and I see the the three major religions use that book to persecute others. How can I justify believing in certain parts and rejecting others while others use it to hate? I cannot give a book with such hatred contained within... racist, sexist, homophobic... The absence of God or void thereof only leaves me with genuine love for people and life instead of deluding my mind with a god that I see as seemingly incapable of materializing itself in the here and now. Thus the cult of zero. God has become zero to me and perhaps that is the truth of all truths. If there are three gods as a man in zero or one god in zero or a multitude of gods in zero, they are still all zero.

Genesis 1:2a KJV
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Job 34:9 KJV
For he hath said , It profiteth a man nothing [zero] that he should delight himself with God.

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@RexRed,

This sort of gobbledeegook religious talk is very stressful, just listening. The word only means how we live our lives every day. Were we judgemental, cruel, jealous, hateful, or were we kind, gentle and loving, tolerant today? That's all that matters. I honestly don't think religion teaches the latter.

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@Pemerson,

Depending on what denomination you belong to tolerance is a great part in Christian teaching. Sects usually do not teach tolerance. The mainstream denominations do teach tolerance - they do not tell you how to believe, they tell you to forgive and forget, to be tolerante.

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@Pemerson,

Pemerson wrote:

This sort of gobbledeegook religious talk is very stressful, just listening. The word only means how we live our lives every day. Were we judgemental, cruel, jealous, hateful, or were we kind, gentle and loving, tolerant today? That's all that matters. I honestly don't think religion teaches the latter.

In all honesty and compassion, apparently you have not read Leviticus. Or you just prefer to turn a blind eye to what cruelty religion has justified and perpetrated in the name of God. While Europe was persecuting homosexuals, imprisoning them and burning witches in the name of this book, you seem to think is harmless, uplifting and inspiring well I beg to differ. Blind faith is stressful to me also and I desire to voice my objections. Do you think being burnt at the stake was stressful? Women were burnt at the stake at the request of the pious and religious, and they want to take America back? These homosexuals were my brothers and sisters... and though you may think their deaths, in the name of Jesus, were trivial I will not ever let their deaths be forgotten. They are the true saints and if you want to pray to something for forgiveness pray to them. This thread is not only about good religion but bad religion also and most of what is in the bible is what I consider bad religion. It is amazing how intellects can draw inspiration from evil and thousands of pages later have twisted it into good at the expense of the lives of innocent people.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Depending on what denomination you belong to tolerance is a great part in Christian teaching. Sects usually do not teach tolerance. The mainstream denominations do teach tolerance - they do not tell you how to believe, they tell you to forgive and forget, to be tolerante.

Faith, hope and charity in general are good things but when based upon Hebrew or Sharia laws then they negate themselves. The pious intellectualize and rationalize and say they love Allah or God and so they justify their hate and intolerance toward others to please their barbarous God.

I am not saying all people are this way but when a few Danish cartoons prompt death threats and the boycotting of an entire (mostly secular) country well I am done with these so called holy books. I tried to love Islam but when i see entire city of Islamists chanting death to America well they have lost my confidence and respect completely. I don't care if the pray to their god 100 items a day. While cartoons of Jews are an every day occurrence in Islamic press and media and they get this little chuckle out of their hatred for Jews, well, there should be a fair playing field. See how they like being the brunt of a joke. Most devoutly religious are a joke anyway. The arrogance to say well my religion is superior to yours is reason enough to not believe in any god at all.

I cannot stand for the double standard. I need hope myself to make me feel whole in my life too and I do not see love as being manifested by the faithful of these sects. Rather than try and pick out the righteous parts I prefer to toss the whole religious thing and start from a naturalists and scientific perspective of humanity and let my love for god manifest in love for those actively giving back to humanity rather than sucking the life out of it.

Children are being filled with this hate even today and it is justified by this so called "freedom of religion". Religious hate is not freedom but bondage and teaching children hate of a another race is as serious a crime as molesting or murdering a child... I consider freedom of religion an oxymoron if it is the religion itself that imprisons the soul and spirit.

When I used to be a preacher I was taught never to apologize for preaching the bible, well, I am not going to apologize for saying that most religion is silly and a waste of life.

When i first became very religious in my late teens I felt sort of sick to my stomach and I was told that I had been flipped upside down. That if I gave it time for my eyes to adjust i would eventually realize that I was upside down before I became religious and that religion had flipped me upside right. Well I am going to counter that to say that when you leave religion you get flipped upside down and when you give your humanity eyes time to adjust you will realize you have actually been set right side up again. Maybe you may feel queezy but in time living without the these vile holy books is much more sensible, tolerant, charitable, humble and productive than living with them. For if we adhere to any particular religion then we shut out entire portions of the free world. This is neither godly or of any virtue or value.

I feel free to love humanity now and these racist and absolutists religions are the greatest obstacle to this free and open human love that pervades my very being. Tolerance can only be found in throwing off the shackles of all religion and becoming a part of the universal human family of life.

Peace without religion

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Intolerance and hate against a certain group has been a political thing probably just as much if not even more than a religious in many areas.
Just think about segregation, that has been buildt into the laws of countries.
Prosecution and killing of another group or race has been also often a political reason.
Tolerance can also go too far. When in Britain sharia laws are accepted for civil cases it is going too far. When Muslims would like Swedish laws to be changed and include sharia laws when it comes to inheritance I am all against it.
Why should a woman or homosexual or nonMuslim not be able to inherate after the father or mother?
Freedom of religion - yes.
But for me this freedom ends and so does my tolerance as soon as another Christian denomination or another religion wants to change my life to their lifestyle.
Why is our churchbells not allowed to ring just because someone does not like to hear them?
I think it is a good idea to have different types of food for lunch in the school, but when porkmeat cannot be served as at all because the smell will disturbe someone - here ends my tolerance. I am for vegetarian food, non porkmeat and porkmeat, but don´t forbid it.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Intolerance and hate against a certain group has been a political thing probably just as much if not even more than a religious in many areas.
Just think about segregation, that has been buildt into the laws of countries.
Prosecution and killing of another group or race has been also often a political reason.
Tolerance can also go too far. When in Britain sharia laws are accepted for civil cases it is going too far. When Muslims would like Swedish laws to be changed and include sharia laws when it comes to inheritance I am all against it.
Why should a woman or homosexual or nonMuslim not be able to inherate after the father or mother?
Freedom of religion - yes.
But for me this freedom ends and so does my tolerance as soon as another Christian denomination or another religion wants to change my life to their lifestyle.
Why is our churchbells not allowed to ring just because someone does not like to hear them?
I think it is a good idea to have different types of food for lunch in the school, but when porkmeat cannot be served as at all because the smell will disturbe someone - here ends my tolerance. I am for vegetarian food, non porkmeat and porkmeat, but don´t forbid it.

I agree with much of what you have said except maybe the church bells.. Imagine substituting that for the Muslim call of worship three times a day or have them both paying at the same time and this is what freedom of religion has fostered noise and confusion... I don't think I could stand it if rat meat was being substituted for pork either and served in school lunches. Time for religion to hush and be minimal and marginalized rather than to gain an even stronger voice in society. Religion makes meat heads of people. Mega churches and televangelism spewing their hate and the bloody cry for Jesus flailing around the pews like they are devils possessed themselves and just as insulting to people of other faiths.

I don't mean to be hateful against religions but, missionaries going to other countries and indoctrinating their children is to me is as sinful as not believing in god at all. When I hear of these missionaries being driven out of town on their ass I don't feel one bit of remorse or pity. I see nothing Christ like and don't expect me to lay palms at their feet.

There is a big difference between humanitarian missions feeding the poor and shoving the bible and the fear of god down people's throats and you and i both know they are exploiting these children of foreign countries. Just as American missionaries tried to steal children from Haiti in the midst of a terrible disaster like wolves they descended upon the unfortunate people of Haiti... It really has little to do with anything godly or good. I am infuriated by missions spreading the gospel to the so called "heathen" when these missionaries act more like heathens than the people they are claiming to be saving.

You can see I have a list bigger than Santa Clause of reasons why I detest organized religion of any sort. For this purpose I cannot support it one single bit. It scares the highly devoutly religious when they think of religion being outlawed by the united nations but consider what religions have done to good honest people for centuries and it is time that they all take a side line to society and government. Liberation is freedom from religion not freedom of religion.

I am also not for forcing eastern Indians to eat cow meat but it is one of the best sources of protein on the planet. The united nations seems to think that cows are causing global warming of some sort anyway. It it beyond me all of this confusion but it seems if governments were to insist that religion subdue their outward public shows of devotion and leave it to a more private affair then the world would get along better.

A thousand people descending on a mosque or church three times a day is brainwashing. Church in the home of a few devotees is much more sensible. Just as kissing in public is vulgar so are the public shows of worship tasteless and disturbing to those of other faiths. Where a tiny chapel in the woods might not be so obtuse but mega churches and golden domes and St Peter's square are just sickening displays of pomp glad rags and brick-a-brack. They seem to have lost the message of the simplicity of a carpenters son dressed in a meager white sheet and sandals. I don't care if they have one god or three, keep it to themselves. I don't flaunt my homosexuality and have missions to convert people to becoming gay, I just live it discretely and with a metered amount of self pride. I don't sojourn to San Francisco once a year as if it were mecca or Woodstock.

I don't go loud obnoxious rock concerts even though many of them are secular. It is big business merging with our right to assemble that is blowing things out of proportion. Where a general public announcement of where the exits are becomes a commercial for some mega conglomerate food chain.

I don't know what I am saying here.. I think I may have lost my point somewhere along the line but I don't know. It felt good to say anyway and Al Gore invented the internet... Smile

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We are blessed in Scandinavia (I think in most of Europe) that we don´t have TV preachers from mega churches.
I visited friends in USA. Someone who in contrary to me liked to sleep late, so I got up made breakfast and took it back to bed watching these TV preachers and got a good laugh lasting the rest of the day - and on the same time getting a bad feeling about the show and the show off.
I don´t go to church regularly, but enjoy a small beautiful church, the colours, the music and the singing and the liturgy and the church coffee with all the homebaked cakes afterwards.
A good friend of ours - priest - introduced us after the Highmass like this"These are good friends of mine. The husband likes to come because of the fine lithurgy and the wife because of the good cakes"

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

Pemerson wrote:

This sort of gobbledeegook religious talk is very stressful, just listening. The word only means how we live our lives every day. Were we judgemental, cruel, jealous, hateful, or were we kind, gentle and loving, tolerant today? That's all that matters. I honestly don't think religion teaches the latter.

In all honesty and compassion, apparently you have not read Leviticus. Or you just prefer to turn a blind eye to what cruelty religion has justified and perpetrated in the name of God. While Europe was persecuting homosexuals, imprisoning them and burning witches in the name of this book, you seem to think is harmless, uplifting and inspiring well I beg to differ. Blind faith is stressful to me also and I desire to voice my objections. Do you think being burnt at the stake was stressful? Women were burnt at the stake at the request of the pious and religious, and they want to take America back? These homosexuals were my brothers and sisters... and though you may think their deaths, in the name of Jesus, were trivial I will not ever let their deaths be forgotten. They are the true saints and if you want to pray to something for forgiveness pray to them. This thread is not only about good religion but bad religion also and most of what is in the bible is what I consider bad religion. It is amazing how intellects can draw inspiration from evil and thousands of pages later have twisted it into good at the expense of the lives of innocent people.

I seem to, generally, agree with your post here. How, then, is it in answer to my short post? I was never taught, or had any particular religion forced on me, as a child. We were taught biblical scripture but not given any particular way to think about it. There was no testing. I am not religious. We are spiritual beings in a human experience. That is entirely a different study, spirituality: The fact that God is within us. Most spiritual material was either removed from bibles, or never became a part of religious teachings.

You seem to speak against religion while still hanging onto it. You are rather young. Live a little longer, study a lot longer, and you will continually change and grow. Life will not allow us to become static, i.e., hating religion but never reaching out to grasp new ideas or concepts. And, I don't usually quote biblical scripture as too much of those books has been radically changed through time.

Actually, I've never heard anyone in any church I've attended speak against homosexuality. But, then, the word church is rather confusing. All the people on this planet are God's church. Chuch then, would not be a building or an institution. I no longer listen to preachers, I read books (yes, all the books concerning subjects like The Inquisition). Bibles won't stand up and explain themselves. In combination with the study of human history, though, we can at least know why this planet is where it is at present. Our situation is not entirely negative, we are learning the horrows of the past. Now, that is stressful, but we'll also be liberated from the past.

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Followers of Jainism do everything possible not to hurt anything at all.

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@saab,

I've attended the Unitarian church only twice, and have no idea of their actual teachings. Wasn't happy, or unhappy, there. But, the people looked rather well off with many of them artists, writers, and college professors, etc. So, can't say I know much about their teachings.

People who attend Unity churches don't gab about what is, is not, discussed. Hundreds of years ago, such were burned at the stake.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Followers of Jainism do everything possible not to hurt anything at all.

Interesting, Chai2. Unity teachings exactly. Wikipedi states about Jainism as follows. Do they meet in church buildings?

Main points
Every living being has a soul.[12]
Every soul is potentially divine, with innate qualities of infinite knowledge, perception, power, and bliss (masked by its karmas).
Therefore, think of every living being as yourself, harming no one and be kind to all living beings.
Every soul is born as a celestial, human, sub-human or hellish being according to its own karmas.
Every soul is the architect of its own life, here or hereafter.[13]
When a soul is freed from karmas, it becomes free and attains divine consciousness, experiencing infinite knowledge, perception, power, and bliss.[14]
Right View, Right Knowledge and Right Conduct (triple gems of Jainism) provide the way to this realization.[15] There is no supreme divine creator, owner, preserver or destroyer. The universe is self-regulated and every soul has the potential to achieve divine consciousness (siddha) through its own efforts.

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Good Religion, Bad Religion

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