Decoding the Pope's words about the dangers of secularism in society

@spendius,

I wonder how many Media-persons have participated in an abortion. In pre-marital sex, in birth control, in adultery, in divorce and in homosexuality. All six profoundly demeaning to women.

You are a twisted thinker.

My girlfriends generally liked our pre-marital sex, and birth control.

Adultery? Demeaning to both partners, I would say.

Divorce, can go either way.

homosexuality? Not in and of itself. Sex can be demeaning to either sex if forced or various other incorrect means.

Women have been subjugated to many forms of demeaning practices. There was little I saw the church do other than assign guilt to any of it.

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@IRFRANK,

I'm afraid you do not quite see the point Frank.

The Church cannot approve of those practices. There's a great difference between accepting that they do go on and approving of them in any positive way which is something the Church will never do even if it has to shrink back into monastic isolation on remote hilltops. The movements in the popularity ratings have nothing to do with the message. It is the carrying of the Christian message which is the main thing. The rest is trivia got up for the moment for people who never think that life transcends their own life and their own time.

The Church has shrunk before. The last four days have been a significant historical event. It matters not one iota what a few jumped up and privileged attention seekers have to say with their specious teleologies and excluded-middle illogicalities.

I need to leave on one side the explanations of why those activities we are discussing are demeaning to women. But the Church thinks they are and it has been studying these matters a long time.

A barmaid in my pub had a sticking plaster on the arm of her beautiful flesh one night and I asked her if she had hurt herself. She said she hadn't. It was an operation she said. It being only a small sticking-plaster and in a place not usually operated on I was curious. So I asked her what it was for? I know ladies like to talk about their operations. To my astonishment she replied "contraception". Vic and I exchanged glances as neither of us had ever heard of such a thing. "Is it a patch?" I asked her. "No", she replied, "it's a metal tube inserted under the skin". With that she moved away to serve a customer, and some of them are right customers, and I turned to Vic and said," A ******* infibulation!! She's been ******* spayed. Our sweet Charlotte has been to the ******* vets so she doesn't give her owner any trouble." And in her owner strolled just then smirking quietly. I almost wept. You should see him leaning on the bar last thing on his fourth pint while he waits as she collects all the glasses, wipes down all the tables and mops the floor behind the bar backwards so that no trace of her own dainty footsteps will survive lights out.

And it all looks so normal. She's a single mum too and whooppee--she has a job and a knob end.

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Why I find the Pope's apology for child abuse disgusting and disingenuous.
(apologies for the 4 second ad leading into this - bear with it)

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@hingehead,

You could run out of language options for some of things that are going on.

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I truly feel for your barmaid friend. Indeed a travesty if as you described. If she is a 'kept' woman as you say perhaps the church can provide some escape? I have to believe there is more to the story.

I had a vasectomy when I was through making babies. I didn't get or expect any sympathies. I didn't ask the church's permission either.

The truth is that women have been subjugated throughout history and it still remains an all to common occurrence.

You may believe that the church and Christ is the answer to all the world's ills, I don't agree.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

I truly feel for your barmaid friend. Indeed a travesty if as you described. If she is a 'kept' woman as you say perhaps the church can provide some escape? I have to believe there is more to the story.

No Frank. There is no more to the story. I gave it to demonstrate that artificial birth control is demeaning to women. If the principle is accepted technology will move to perfect it.

The simple fact that such an operation is available tells me that it is now a common thing. Women being speyed. Like cats and dogs.

Brave New World forsees that being normal as does something similar in Alphaville and Blackeyes.

We are arrived in a situation where a woman, by being de-natured in such ways to cater for men's selfishness, has become more like a man from a sexual point of view. A risk free orifice. Thus heterosexuality merges into homosexuality. The muse is dying. The Church is right.

And to have recourse to abortion (46, 000,000 since Roe/Wade) when technology fails is way beyond the pale in my view. I know who the misogynists are if nobody else does.

"Man has invented his doom,
First step was touching the moon." Bob Dylan. Licence to Kill.

The Church defends the purity of women against the forces of material commercialism. It has my full support. Notwithstanding a few "unspeakable" individuals who opponents of the Church would be lost without as their constant harping proves.

Fancy building a case to denature the feminine on a few incidents of the sort every large organisation can throw up and on the idea that if the Church was abolished the "unspeakable" individuals would go away. What gross fatuity.

There used to be a time when gambling was illegal. Commercial interests got it legalised and now the integrity of sport is being questioned. And also the integrity of the financial sector.

One can even argue now that the purest sport is pro-wrestling because everybody knows it is fixed and the fun is seeing how good the wrestlers are at doing it. Which they are.

Suppose the gladiators didn't actually kill each other when the thumbs down was given but faked it and then went to the next arena for the next gig. It might have been real to begin with but once an established professional system with schools (teams) came in what else would they come up with?

The Roman Catholic catechism warns against match fixing in strenuous terms. They "constitute grave matter" it says. (Clause 2413).

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I am starting to see why people put you on ignore.

You would have been more comfortable as a jailer in the dark ages.

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@IRFRANK,

I cannot, even by stretching my credulity to its limits, understand why you have made such a silly and pointless remark.

I can only think that you couldn't, or daren't, disagree with any of the points I made and that your post is a foot-stamp accompanied by the first blurt that came into your head which is not a response to my remarks and thus off-topic trolling.

But carry on old boy. I like to see opponents of Christian teaching making utter fools of themselves and demonstrating that their own selfishness at the expense of women is at the root of their philosophy. Which is fair enough. It's a respectable philosophical position in some circles.

When people put me on Ignore it means I have defeated them in argument and that they are too stubborn, narrow-minded and weak to be able to take it. And posts like your's are the same.

It makes it look like such responses are from people who are not in a debate to learn anything but are there simply to promote their own bigotry.

I like to hope that in a few years and with a little effort you will come to be ashamed of that post.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
I truly feel for your barmaid friend. Indeed a travesty if as you described. If she is a 'kept' woman as you say perhaps the church can provide some escape? I have to believe there is more to the story.

No Frank. There is no more to the story. I gave it to demonstrate that artificial birth control is demeaning to women. If the principle is accepted technology will move to perfect it.

The simple fact that such an operation is available tells me that it is now a common thing. Women being speyed. Like cats and dogs.

Brave New World forsees that being normal as does something similar in Alphaville and Blackeyes.

We are arrived in a situation where a woman, by being de-natured in such ways to cater for men's selfishness, has become more like a man from a sexual point of view. A risk free orifice. Thus heterosexuality merges into homosexuality. The muse is dying. The Church is right.

And to have recourse to abortion (46, 000,000 since Roe/Wade) when technology fails is way beyond the pale in my view. I know who the misogynists are if nobody else does.

"Man has invented his doom,
First step was touching the moon." Bob Dylan. Licence to Kill.

The Church defends the purity of women against the forces of material commercialism. It has my full support. Notwithstanding a few "unspeakable" individuals who opponents of the Church would be lost without as their constant harping proves.

Fancy building a case to denature the feminine on a few incidents of the sort every large organisation can throw up and on the idea that if the Church was abolished the "unspeakable" individuals would go away. What gross fatuity.

There used to be a time when gambling was illegal. Commercial interests got it legalised and now the integrity of sport is being questioned. And also the integrity of the financial sector.

One can even argue now that the purest sport is pro-wrestling because everybody knows it is fixed and the fun is seeing how good the wrestlers are at doing it. Which they are.

Suppose the gladiators didn't actually kill each other when the thumbs down was given but faked it and then went to the next arena for the next gig. It might have been real to begin with but once an established professional system with schools (teams) came in what else would they come up with?

The Roman Catholic catechism warns against match fixing in strenuous terms. They "constitute grave matter" it says. (Clause 2413).

I would like to hear more, though I doubt your figures as to abortions... The question I would ask you is this: Why should a woman be forced to bear new life when she finds her own life demeaned and demeaning... It is one thing you cannot bullshit people about, and that is whether their lives are worth the trouble of reproduction... Rome and Greece killed their babies, but it was women killing their daughters because they were themselves without rights and did not want their daughters to suffer their lives of indignity... But the whole of society can wink out too, trading their futures for one more party until they drop dead... If this Christian society is acting just like the pagans of old, what does that tell you about Christian morality???... It tells me that Christian morality is a pius sham, a fraud held before the eyes of the believers while their lives are used and their pockets picked for the powerful in society... The Christian Churches including my Church, the Catholic Church are corrupt, and have been corrupt, and they are all the enemy of morality and they use morality without adding one little mite to its meaning...

I think the argument against abortion is a good moral argument that is trashed the moment the church chooses the coercion of law to enforce their will rather than looking to value women as the human beings they are, to give them justice and a ssense of right and meaning... The church wants to turn law loose on women and compel them to bear the children of men who will not respect them or love them or honor them or support them in parenting...

And the church would deny to them the love the so desparately need in this loveless world... They will not, as individuals or a group, make those women part of their families, form relationships with them, or take a real, life long interest in their well being... Why would anyone want to have children for such ingrates??? It is political power the churches want; because if they wanted good they would see that is already within their power.... But in doing good they might find themselves exhausted, feeling as wasted as those they would help; but then, they could honest raise their voices in a great demand for lives of meaning, where the meaning is not drained out of so many of us and turned into cash... Making laws is easy with the side benefit of power... Actually engaging with people, and making their cause your own is much nore difficult; but that is what the churches should do... We have enough laws... We do not have enough true Christians...

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@Fido,

From Google--

Quote:

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
49,551,703
Total Abortions since 1973

I think your argument is specious Fido unless you will address yourself to find a vehicle to carry Christian morality to replace the Church, for all its admitted faults.

The Church has no power except that of persuasion. It is ranged against other powers of persuasion which might equally be said to be pick-pocketing. The Church has no power of coercion. It's take is based on passing the hat round and contributions are voluntary.

What makes you think that the Church is responsible for many women feeling demeaned? How much input does the Church have into how people feel?

I agree we don't have enough true Christians but attacking the Church seems to me the best way to have even less of them.

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I don't know how this is relevant to what the Pope said, but since spendius is quoting numbers, it's cute how he is omitting (or maybe he is just to dumb to know) that the number he quotes includes countries where abortion is illegal. I believe the number 20 million in countries where it is illegal, almost half. This statistic is most important in understanding that Roe v Wade is not the issue, and that when discussing Roe v Wade, the only thing being discussed is whether you want to criminalize and imprison people.

A
R
T

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@failures art,

Anything you say is relevant fa.

I got the number off Google and it related to the US. I checked another site which gave the numbers each year since Roe/Wade, showing a nice picture of the 9 members of the USSC, and totted them up roughly and I got over 40,000,000.

I also got this--

Quote:

An estimated 43% of women will have at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

And one's enough. Such is the shame of it that I daresay you know very few of the 43% despite those women you do know being a fair sized number. One loads the shame up sufficiently. One only has to imagine the practicalities of performing it. It's a bit of a burden.

Criminalisation has the advantage of lenient sentencing eventually resulting in cases not even been prosecuted unless the police think there are special reasons for doing so. As prostitution is criminalised. Which is "on the ground local control" and the sort of thing enemies of Big Washington ought to be in favour of. And the fear of the abortionist might play a part in the reduction of unwanted pregnancies which are the bread and butter of the trade. Money that could be used to bring up the unwanted babies which might make their presence more enjoyable.

The mighty State signing its name to 40,000,000 plus abortions is the real objection. A Constitution arriving at a state of affairs of such a nature. As our's has too. And once legal normal business methods apply. Providing unwanted pregnancies being No 1 priority.

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wiki wrote:

Worldwide 42 million abortions are estimated to take place annually with 22 million of these occurring safely and 20 million unsafely.[3] While maternal mortality seldom results from safe abortions, unsafe abortions result in 70,000 deaths and 5 million disabilities per year.[3] One of the main determinants of the availability of safe abortions is the legality of the procedure.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

The country with the highest abortion rate is Russia.

A
R
T

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

From Google--

Quote:
The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
49,551,703
Total Abortions since 1973

I think your argument is specious Fido unless you will address yourself to find a vehicle to carry Christian morality to replace the Church, for all its admitted faults.

The Church has no power except that of persuasion. It is ranged against other powers of persuasion which might equally be said to be pick-pocketing. The Church has no power of coercion. It's take is based on passing the hat round and contributions are voluntary.

What makes you think that the Church is responsible for many women feeling demeaned? How much input does the Church have into how people feel?

I agree we don't have enough true Christians but attacking the Church seems to me the best way to have even less of them.

Morality does not need a vehicle, and we see what a mistake it is to leave morality in the hands of a few special interests to define... The church is not a fair judge of any morality... It has its own horse in the race, so even when the communists offered the same morality as the early Christians they were damned to hell because the church really cares nothing for morality and only for power, and money....The historic church is no worse than the present church and it is no better... They have sucked up to power and taken their leadership from the rich who they have supported in pillage as long as they got their share... And it was huge, with them owning a fifth to a third of most lands in Europe, and they are still Feudal in mind set, and their treatment of the body of christ as though they are only so many peasants is unforgivable... The morality of the people is superior to that of the church is most matters, and left to their own, people would soon find a morality that works for them...

What the church does to third world countries, moving in, buying their affections with food, charity, and medicine without helping those people to regulate in some moral fashion their populations, which are excessive to account for a former mortality is criminal... Then they ask the faithful to support even more the out of control populations they have helped out of control...It is all an excuse to get their cut of the commerce... They are not helping anyone but feeding the need for war as the ultimate birth control...

They help illegals here, and in so doing encourage them to escape injustice in their lands to suffer more injustice in this land with the result being that American are denied their rights in competition with virtural slaves.. I help too... A human being is a human being to me, and I cannot judge one in need as worthy or not... But I am not joining with my church in telling those people they cannot have justice in their native lands, and I am not accepting it when my church tells me I can only have justice in heaven...

The church suffers the weakness of all social forms, and that is all those who would take it over and pervert its meaning for their own benefit... I know what Jesus was about... I don't think he was saying I have a right to justice, or even the expectation of justice, and I don't... I am saying it... I am saying if we do not have morality and justice then we will only be slaves to our passions first and then to some earthly master... I am saying morality and freedom are essential to each other; and the reason the church has been such a failure at achieving the kingdom of God on earth is that they have insisted upon slavery, and no slave can be moral, for where his life goes, his mind goes, and where his mind goes his soul goes so he lacks the essential freedom to choose God or morality, and can only serve... God damn my church if they cannot mend their ways...Whatever passes for philosophy with them has been blinded and hamstrung...

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@Fido,

I can't take that on Fido. It's far too complex for this format. There are a lot of questions begged in it and a lot of assertions. I agree it is a plausible argument but I don't accept it for the reason I gave. Morality needs a powerful vehicle to carry it. You disagree. You think it arises spontaneously. I don't. The vehicle needs must be run by flawed humans. It may well have some of the faults you claim but they can be put right. The faults might even be caused by the importance of keeping the vehicle fit to carry the morality. Which many say is no excuse.

Providing ammunition for the Church's opponents is hardly the proper way for a Catholic to conduct himself. There is no grey area I'm afraid.

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Men arguing over whether or not it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion. Pompous is one word I think of. I think the only people who should be allowed to vote on this issue are women. And you want to deny birth control to women? What arrogance. I saw no inference that your barmaid's decision was forced upon her.

Practice your Christian morality on yourself and leave me and my family alone.

Oh, on a personal level I am very much against abortion. It is a horrible form of birth control. But I respect that I can have no idea what it must be like to have a life inside of you and have to make such a decision. I would only hope to support whatever decision is made with true compassion.

You get put on ignore because your posturing is hollow and repetitive.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I can't take that on Fido. It's far too complex for this format. There are a lot of questions begged in it and a lot of assertions. I agree it is a plausible argument but I don't accept it for the reason I gave. Morality needs a powerful vehicle to carry it. You disagree. You think it arises spontaneously. I don't. The vehicle needs must be run by flawed humans. It may well have some of the faults you claim but they can be put right. The faults might even be caused by the importance of keeping the vehicle fit to carry the morality. Which many say is no excuse.

Providing ammunition for the Church's opponents is hardly the proper way for a Catholic to conduct himself. There is no grey area I'm afraid.

Your statement that morality needs a powerful vehicle to carry it is the purest cant and nonsense... What in the hell did people do before the wheel??? Were they totally immoral, running around naked, and oblivious to the sin they were boiling in, or did they only push it down fill or drag it with ropes??? Try to think clearly and get a grip... All your powerful social forms created to drive morality in style shove morality under their wheels at every opportunity... To use your pointless metaphore... Many churchmen and good Christians happened to notice that the Native Americans were more moral than the Christian interlopers... They were not crushed for lack of morality, but by immorality as you suggest, on wheels...

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Men arguing over whether or not it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion. Pompous is one word I think of. I think the only people who should be allowed to vote on this issue are women. And you want to deny birth control to women? What arrogance. I saw no inference that your barmaid's decision was forced upon her.

Practice your Christian morality on yourself and leave me and my family alone.

Oh, on a personal level I am very much against abortion. It is a horrible form of birth control. But I respect that I can have no idea what it must be like to have a life inside of you and have to make such a decision. I would only hope to support whatever decision is made with true compassion.

You get put on ignore because your posturing is hollow and repetitive.

What is so pompous about defending the right of a woman to be free in her own body... If a person is not free in their own body they are not free at all, and I don't like abortions, and I think women are victims of their own actions because the were vicitms before, perhaps from the moment of birth, and men too, but what say have they in whether their children are born once conceived??? Try to remember what was attributed to Socrates on the issue of Justice... He said there would be justice in Athens when those not injured by injustice were as indignant as those who were... Traditional morality give only to the family the rights over the lives of their own... Anyone else killing theirs demanded vengeance... If the mother is that one most injured by the death of her child who else has the right to make a case of it??? If there were any community in the traditional sense they might support their women in the parenting and labor; but they are no longer around...The church with their over burden of laws and their definition of individuals and individual rights has fractured every community and as we can see, is even attacking the family as abortion makes evident... Look at the facts... Happy people want to share their happiness, but happiness is rare and misery is common...The stupid society does not work, and the church is much responsible for that ineffectiveness, the rareness of justice, and endless exploitation of people makes life meaningless, to meaningless to share... So I don't like any part of the whole thing but the idea of forcing women to bear the children of men who cannot care, cannot share, and are unaware of the consequences they cast like so many dice is one I cannot accept...

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Fido - I think we are in agreement.

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@Fido,

Thank you for your posts here, Fido. You stated your case very well. I also agree with pretty much all you've said.

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Decoding the Pope's words about the dangers of secularism in society

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