25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 07:00 pm
@BillRM,
That you consider sexual assault/rape part of "normal young males/females hetrosexaul sexual courtship behaviors" says it all.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 07:12 pm
Quote:
New Campus Sexual Assault Legislation Is Not Enough to Prevent Another Florida State Scandal
by Emily Matchar
April 18, 2014

The front-page New York Times story was horrifyingly familiar. A college student allegedly raped by a sports star. A police department whose investigation was suspiciously perfunctory. A university that looked the other way, seemingly more interested in its multi-million-dollar football program than campus safety.

The Florida State scandal is just the latest in a series of dismaying cases that make it hard to deny that the mishandling of college sexual assault is a critical problem nationwide. Recently, numerous big name schools, including Yale, Swarthmore, Harvard, the University of North Carolina, and Amherst, have come under fire for their treatment of sexual assault cases. Victims were ignored or dismissed. Administrators were told to make sure charges never saw the light of day.

As the problem becomes more and more obvious, we’re beginning to see new policies. At the federal level there’s President Obama’s Campus Sexual Violence Elimination (SaVE) Act, which will take effect this year. The act requires any college or university participating in federal student aid programs (essentially, all U.S. schools) to meet new standards, including prompt investigation of alleged sexual assaults and anti-sexual assault educational programs. Schools that fail to meet these standards can lose their federal aid. This is on top of the Obama administration’s 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter, which also mandated a higher level of responsiveness to sexual assault charges, recommending that colleges use a "preponderance of the evidence” standard when it came to investigating sexual assault, a lower bar than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard used in criminal cases. This drew the ire of a number of individual liberties groups, which claimed it violated due process.

Legislation pending in California covers similar ground, and is drawing similar reactions, both positive and negative. Under a proposed new bill, SB 967, any college receiving public funding must adopt an “affirmative consent” standard for determining whether or not an assault took place—in other words, it’s not just “no means no,” it’s “only yes means yes.” The law would also bar certain excuses from being used as mitigating factors—that the accused was drunk, for example. Students would be responsible for securing consent from their partner “expressed either by words or clear, unambiguous actions” prior to each bout of sexual activity.

Does this make sense as a means to improve the obviously troubled way that colleges have addressed sexual assault? Some say that “only yes means yes” is the best way to avoid coercion and misunderstanding. Lying silently on the bed in terror is not consent, they say. Supporters include the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault and the California Partnership to End Domestic Violence. “The measure will change the equation so the system is not stacked against the survivors,” said state senator Kevin de León, one of the bill’s authors, quoted in The Sacramento Bee. “There’s nothing that’s vague, there’s nothing that’s ambiguous to this equation right here.”

Others say that legislating sexuality to such a degree is, in the words of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, a non-profit civil liberties group, “confusing and legally unworkable.” They point to the much-ridiculed “Antioch Rules” of the early 1990s, in which the ultra-liberal Ohio college passed a policy requiring students to explicitly ask before any sexual encounter (“may I kiss you? May I touch your left breast?”).

But the larger issue surrounding the prosecution of sexual assault on college campuses, as the Times story sadly showed, is the reluctance of universities and the police to pursue these crimes. While new legislation may make it easier to prosecute sexual assault, the fact is that neither universities nor the justice system are particularly interested in prosecuting sexual assault.

Rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute both on and off campuses. Only about 10 percent of all rapes in America are ever reported to the police in the first place. And of these, only 14 to 18 percent are ultimately prosecuted. As a report from the Center for Research on Violence Against Women bluntly states, “Prosecutors often only take cases they can win.”

When a rape is committed at a college, there are additional difficulties when it comes to investigation and prosecution. First, there’s the fact that it’s simply more common. Women between the ages of 16 and 24 experience rape at four times the average for all women. And women in college are raped in higher numbers than women of the same age who are not in school. The types of rape these women tend to experience—where alcohol is involved and the rapist is an acquaintance—are both less likely to be reported and less likely to be prosecuted than so-called “stranger rape.” These are the “he said, she said” cases that police are most likely to dismiss and prosecutors are loath to take on.

The universities themselves often stand in the way of justice. More and more reports are emerging about students discouraged by university administrators from reporting their assaults to the police. And internal disciplinary proceedings are often troublingly opaque and inadequate, both for accuser and accused. At the University of California at Berkeley, only 1 out of 32 cases of alleged sexual assault between 2011 and 2013 received a formal disciplinary hearing. At Harvard, an alleged victim was told by campus authorities to forgive her assailant and learn to live in the same dorm as him. At UNC, an assistant dean of students was ordered by her higher-ups to underreport sexual assault cases. Rarely does a week go by without a new scandal.

“I don’t think we need any new laws, I don’t think we need to redefine rape,” says Jody Raphael, a visiting professor at DePaul University College of Law and author of Rape Is Rape: How Denial, Distortion, and Victim Blaming Are Fueling a Hidden Acquaintance Rape Crisis. “Whatever law you put on the books, if the police won’t investigate, if the prosecutors won’t bring charges, if the colleges won’t tell the police, if the colleges won’t investigate, it doesn’t matter what laws are on the book.”

New legislation has the potential to change things, but only if colleges are held accountable, too. Stricter rules are not enough; colleges need to enforce these policies, and they need students, professors, and everyone involved to report them if they don’t. Maybe if fellow universities start to lose their federal funding, schools like Florida State won’t be quite so cavalier about putting the football star above the freshman.

http://www.newrepublic.com/node/117414/print
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 09:02 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
While new legislation may make it easier to prosecute sexual assault, the fact is that neither universities nor the justice system are particularly interested in prosecuting sexual assault
It is that damn legal system which allows for juries....the laws that the feminists are trying to put in place are not generally supported by the peers of the accused who get to sit in judgement. Why waste time and money on cases that will never get a conviction when resources are stretched so thin? It makes perfect sense to let largely petty sexual misadventures (no one was hurt) go. This is of course why the federal government is pushing to dispatch with due process for those accused of sexual misconduct, our government proving yet again that it does not give a damn about the constitutional rights of its charges.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 09:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It makes perfect sense to let largely petty sexual misadventures (no one was hurt) go.

Crimes that are considered felonies, as rape is, are not "largely petty sexual misadventures" and I think you are totally unjustified in asserting that "no was hurt" in these assaults.

And I can't see where it would be at all appropriate for a college to simply ignore or "let go" a sexual assault complaint by a student that involves a violation of law, as well as a violation of the school's code of conduct, by another student.

I think Sen. McCaskill is right when she says, “There’s a closed environment where victims feel more under a microscope than they might were they not in that closed environment like a military base or a college campus,”--there are unique problems involved in handling these matters in "closed environments" like a college campus.

The laws are already in place. But there need to be better investigations done by the colleges, and better coordination with law enforcement. And the first step is gathering the data regarding the policies and procedures the colleges currently have in effect--which is what Sen. McCaskill's survey is intended to do. No one seems happy with the way things are being handled on campuses right now, and it is a hodge-podge, and a more general, and accurate over-view of what's going on is needed. Hopefully, that will be obtained through this survey. Then there will be a clearer starting point to facilitate further discussion.

Trying to mischaracterize sexual assault/rape as being merely a "petty sexual misadventure" simply shows how far removed from reality you are--both the reality of existing law, and the reality of these crimes and their impact, and the complexity involved in handling these crimes on a college campus.

There's nothing "petty" about being raped. There's nothing "petty" about committing a rape.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 09:59 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Crimes that are considered felonies, as rape is, are not "largely petty sexual misadventures
according to the state, the people might have other ideas. The state hurts its credibility and support when it overcharges according to the people, as many a king learned too late.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 10:23 pm
@hawkeye10,
When it comes to comes to crimes of sexual assault/rape, the loudest protests from "the people" seem to be that it is too easy for rapists to avoid punishment, and even prosecution, so that it is a crime which can be committed with relative impunity. There's no general concern with "over-charging" when it comes to rape--it's quite the opposite. You're just not listening to "the people", Hawkeye.

And, when parents send their kids off to college, they don't want them sexually assaulted by other students, and they don't want such sexual assaults/rapes of their children airily dismissed as "petty sexual misadventures" or see them ignored.

What world are you in?



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 11:09 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
When it comes to comes to crimes of sexual assault/rape, the loudest protests from "the people" seem to be that it is too easy for rapists to avoid punishment,

the jury selection process is designed to exclude agitators.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:11 am
@hawkeye10,
Because of flawed investigations, of the sort the NY Times revealed regarding FSU, cases never even get to a courtroom, let alone to a jury...
Quote:
The front-page New York Times story was horrifyingly familiar. A college student allegedly raped by a sports star. A police department whose investigation was suspiciously perfunctory. A university that looked the other way, seemingly more interested in its multi-million-dollar football program than campus safety.

The Florida State scandal is just the latest in a series of dismaying cases that make it hard to deny that the mishandling of college sexual assault is a critical problem nationwide. Recently, numerous big name schools, including Yale, Swarthmore, Harvard, the University of North Carolina, and Amherst, have come under fire for their treatment of sexual assault cases. Victims were ignored or dismissed. Administrators were told to make sure charges never saw the light of day...

“I don’t think we need any new laws, I don’t think we need to redefine rape,” says Jody Raphael, a visiting professor at DePaul University College of Law and author of Rape Is Rape: How Denial, Distortion, and Victim Blaming Are Fueling a Hidden Acquaintance Rape Crisis. “Whatever law you put on the books, if the police won’t investigate, if the prosecutors won’t bring charges, if the colleges won’t tell the police, if the colleges won’t investigate, it doesn’t matter what laws are on the book.”...

New legislation has the potential to change things, but only if colleges are held accountable, too. Stricter rules are not enough; colleges need to enforce these policies, and they need students, professors, and everyone involved to report them if they don’t. Maybe if fellow universities start to lose their federal funding, schools like Florida State won’t be quite so cavalier about putting the football star above the freshman.

http://www.newrepublic.com/node/117414/print


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:27 am
@firefly,
FSU is a special case, it is one fucked up university, there is no defending them.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 02:51 am
The following New York Times article on the Jameis Winston case might be helpful:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html

I just thought it might add something to the current thread. Make of it what you will. I don't intend to be here. I'm experiencing what I'd call severe online forum posting fatigue. I'm seriously considering a long, if not permanent, vacation. Besides, I have pressing concerns in real life that I must attend. It really has nothing to do with A2K. In general, posting in any online forum seems futile to me. It's just expressing your opinion, and nothing else. Very rarely are minds changed. It does have entertainment value in a sort of soap opera way. But when you end up saying the same things over and over again and you have nothing new or anything of value to say (which is true of me now), what's the point?
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 04:34 am
@wmwcjr,
Trying to change people's minds in forums is futile.
Better to find support from like-minded posters.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 06:01 am
@wmwcjr,
Yes young and horny college kids go out and illegally drink and then screw and the results is that the females are rape victims and the males are rapists
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 08:38 am
@panzade,
In BillRM's world it's only rape if the woman does not survive the ordeal. If she's still got a pulse it ain't rape.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 10:01 am
@izzythepush,
It surely not rape when a woman had placed herself of her own free will under the influence of alcohol and or drugs and then spread her legs apart for some guy.

Only force or threat of force or having sex with someone who is not aware of their surrounding count as rape as far as fully adult women are concern.

Men have no duty to act as women sexual guardians when they are out drinking together.

To state otherwise is removing the adulthood standing of women in sexual matters.

Izzy and the like look at adult women as children that men had a duty to protect from themselves.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 10:39 am
@BillRM,
As Panzade has already pointed out some people are too entrenched to see their own prejudices. The figures speak for themselves most rapes go unreported, the few cases of false rape claims are miniscule in comparison, yet you insist on believing the exact opposite. There's absolutely no reason involved, if there was you'd acknowledge the truth. Instead you insist on believing in a fantasy no less ridiculous that that of fundamentalist Christians you're so fond of. You're cut from the same cloth, all bigotry and irrational belief, and reason be damned.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 10:54 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
There's absolutely no reason involved, if there was you'd acknowledge the truth


the truth is that women often are so sexual aggressive that the modern definition of "rapist" applies to them

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

you will not find this truth acknowledged on any of the 466 pages of this thread, so dont get so hoity-toity about truth.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 10:56 am
@hawkeye10,
Don't talk rot, no one has tried to claim there aren't male victims. The only difference is that no one sees you as a victim despite all your claims to the contrary.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 10:59 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Don't talk rot, no one has tried to claim there aren't male victims. The only difference is that no one sees you as a victim despite all your claims to the contrary.
as usual you did not comprehend, I was not talking about victims, I was talking about abusers.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 11:05 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
the few cases of false rape claims are miniscule in comparison,


yes indeed so is the claim that false rape charges are rare however any numbers of peer review studies one lasting ten years and dealing with two mid-west cities and one dealing with thousands of claim rapes in the US airforce found that anywhere from just short of 50 percents to the 25 percents range are false.

Both studies had been posted on this very thread along with other studies in the past.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2014 11:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Sexual assaults on males have been mentioned throughout this thread--although, as the title indicates, this thread was intended to discuss assaults of females--specifically the notion that, if a woman gets raped, it’s somehow her fault, that she welcomed or invited it in some way.

You're the one who's tried to deny the importance of sexual assaults against men.

You balked when the Feds redefined rape in 2012 so that it could include sexual assaults against men. The old definition--“the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.”--was unable to include male victims. You didn't care about that, you didn't care if male victims were excluded, you wanted the old outdated definition retained, mainly because you wanted to see females bloodied and beaten to prove they were raped.

And you've further labeled all current sexual assault/rape laws as being "anti-male"--completely turning a blind eye to the fact that they are intended to deter and punish sexual assault crimes against both genders.

There is no denying the fact that men can be sexually abused and assaulted by women as well as by other men. And, since you're the one who has most often tried to deny, and ignore, that fact, I'd suggest you shouldn't get so "hoity-toity about truth"--you have no regard for "truth" if it doesn't fit in with the agenda you're trying to promote. And the only reason you cite that article is not because you are concerned about male victims, but because you think it allows you to make a negative comment about women.

You are as phony as they come.



0 Replies
 
 

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