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Misquoting Jesus

 
 
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 03:26 am
Per Fatal Freedoms Recommendation I read Misquoting Jesus. Mako helped me giving his review earlier:
Quote:


I read it and was quite disappointed with the book since it doesn't deliver what it promises, there is almost no quotes of Jesus at all. :confused:

The second concern that the book is not not correct ignoring previous copies.
Total there are four families of the copies:
a. Alexandria: in Egypt.
b. Western: in Rome.
c. Byzantine: in Asia Minor. This is the text type that is the basis for the King James Version.
d. Caesarean: in Palestine.

Fourth century Codex Sinaiticus is the later Western family copy written on parchment or vellum. Earlier copies Alexandria family that we have are papyri fragments (2nd to 4th century A.D.). They are not complete copies but there are 70 known that gave us a good indication of the Scriptures. The most known is Rylands Library Papyrus P52 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/P52_recto.jpg/200px-P52_recto.jpg
wich is considered to be dated from 90 AD to 170 AD, most likely 125-150 AD.

The point is that Ehrman acknowledges that those difference that he writes about matter little, "but some affect religious doctrine."

The differences are so small that only 1 to 2.5% of the entire N.T. uncertain (Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict).
[CENTER]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C4ucNX93L._SL500_AA240_.jpg[/CENTER]

Some one may ask how's it that there is uncertainty at all. Couple explanations There are unintentional errors of copying:errors of sight, hearing, memory, judgment. There are some intentional errors but those are relatively rare, they are
a. To clarify a vague text.
b. To harmonize the text with a familiar expression.
c. To include all options in order to preserve the text.
d. To strengthen theology (very rare)

Our problem is not having missing some of the Bible, but of having too much and determining which has been added:
  • Alexandria Family (2nd to 4th century A.D.) - 70 known.
  • The Western (4th to 10th century A.D.) - 250 known.
  • The minuscules, Byzantium + Western (10th century to printing press) - 2600 copies.


In reality the percentage of uncertainty relates to minor details, not theological issues (e.g. spelling, etc.).

The Bible is God's inspired book, but it was given through a human channel. But it's still infallible since it's God's given book. And there many references in the Bible where God is taking His Word very serious.

If you are still not convinced if you could be confident in the Bible because of different copies of manuscripts get New Kings James where all those variations are listed. Or you can see it online
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,987 • Replies: 35
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Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:02 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60084 wrote:

In reality the percentage of uncertainty relates to minor details, not theological issues (e.g. spelling, etc.).



spelling can affect meaning and thus theology.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 09:28 am
@marcus cv,
Not just theology, it applys to all.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 01:32 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
spelling can affect meaning and thus theology.


It's about the source, can we trust the source, the Scriptures? And everyone should make an honest, personal decision.

The theology is not the same for anyone, everyone has an unique understanding of God and an unique relationship, or lack of it.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 06:55 am
@marcus cv,
A small misspelling or adding a phrase can dramatically alter what people believe especially for people who take everything literally and word-for-word.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 08:48 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
A small misspelling or adding a phrase can dramatically alter what people believe especially for people who take everything literally and word-for-word.


Would you discredit the Bible because some copies have spelling errors?
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:35 am
@marcus cv,
Ff???
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 06:18 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60256 wrote:
Would you discredit the Bible because some copies have spelling errors?


No, but it tells me that the bible isn't inerrant as many people insist.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:26 pm
@marcus cv,
Thank you.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 01:06 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;60337 wrote:
Thank you.


for what?
0 Replies
 
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 03:46 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
No, but it tells me that the bible isn't inerrant as many people insist.

Originals were inspired, and copies are expired to the extend they represent originals. Which is very, very close. As some suggest the Bible we have only .5 - 2 % of the text that is uncertain.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 07:41 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60518 wrote:
Originals were inspired, and copies are expired to the extend they represent originals. Which is very, very close. As some suggest the Bible we have only .5 - 2 % of the text that is uncertain.


who is some? If you asked me i'd say about 67% of it is uncertain.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 08:51 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Consider Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 09:01 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60689 wrote:
Consider Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict


Why should i trust the word of one man?
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 10:15 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
If you would like I can provide you a list at least of dozen textual criticism experts who would confirm that.
But I doubt it would be still a valid argument for you. There are always elements of faith, but Christianity is not a blind faith.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 06:59 am
@marcus cv,
I'm just curious how someone would verify a claim such as this:


Quote:
As some suggest the Bible we have only .5 - 2 % of the text that is uncertain.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 05:00 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
http://docs.google.com/File?id=df77txr4_1fn6s92mz_b
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 05:46 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60956 wrote:
http://docs.google.com/File?id=df77txr4_1fn6s92mz_b


Oooh by "uncertain" do you mean "different from original"?
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 06:12 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60256 wrote:
Would you discredit the Bible because some copies have spelling errors?


No because the influence of generations of men with vested interests and agendas subtlety change the intent of the words to suit their own needs.

As a piece of liturature the Bible is very interesting, as a 'text book' of fact about jesus and God it most certainly is not.
0 Replies
 
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 11:10 pm
@marcus cv,
The newer translations are actually more accurate than the old ones in that they are going back to earlier texts and translations that have been discovered since the earlier translations.
 

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