On freewill and choice.

I am not here to volunteer that example, as I do not believe in freewill either.

I get my disbelief about freewill mostly from Nietzsche - and, although it would take some time, if you are interested, I may provide tou some references.
What about yours? What's your definition of freewill?

my disbelief comes from never seeing or hearing about a single instance of free will in my lifetime.

my definition of freewill is the ability to make a choice for no reason. i have yet to see a living thing do anything without a reason.

Are you looking for a simple example?

"Someone asked me if I'd like a red Jelly Belly or a Blue Jelly Belly. I chose red."

Or are you looking for something more complex?

Are you looking for a simple example?

"Someone asked me if I'd like a red Jelly Belly or a Blue Jelly Belly. I chose red."

Or are you looking for something more complex?

---------- Post added 05-07-2010 at 01:52 AM ----------



Something will always make a choice for at least one reason, that reason being that there is a choice to be made. I don't think this is what you meant though. Do you mean "the ability to choose A over B for no reason?"

that works. why did you chose red?

---------- Post added 05-07-2010 at 04:55 AM ----------



yes. freewill would only apply in a case in which you are indifferent. i believe even in those cases you would still have a reason. ill explain as we go.

Because I prefer red to blue and the nature of my will is to go with my preference if nothing else weighs on the choice.

so given that you like red do you think blue was an option? do you think you were free to like blue or do you think that the way your life unfolded that red was the only option? Or why do you like red?

I would like for anyone willing to give an example of freewill or a case were freewill is involved to do so here.

Yes, I think blue was an option. I prefer red to blue, and at the time I preferred red to blue, but my preferences are not set in stone. If I just decide I like blue I can choose the blue. Red would have been the only option if my preferences could not change, but since at the moment of choice my preference could have gone either way, my choice could have gone either way.

An agent has free will on occasions when they make and enact a conscious choice from amongst realisable alternatives.
I can type A and I can type B, thus I have established realisable alternatives.
I'm presently conscious.
I choose and type A.

An agent has free will on occasions when they make and enact a conscious choice from amongst realisable alternatives.
I can type A and I can type B, thus I have established realisable alternatives.
I'm presently conscious.
I choose and type A.

1: a choice is presented
2: your brain does its thing and a choice is made
3: the choice is acted upon.

I personally think it is somewhat difficult to maintain a vision of free will without some sort of espousal of either a soul or dualism or some transcendent self which is not subject to causal determinism.

so free will exists because free will exists? exactly how do you know you could have typed B? just because you can pick A one minute and B the next does not mean you have free will. I believe that if someone had a time machine and kept going back in time to watch you choose to type A no matter how many times they did it you would never choose B. At a different time you may chose be but in that case you could never choose A.

in other word its something like this

1: a choice is presented
2: your brain does its thing and a choice is made
3: the choice is acted upon.

for a different choice to be made you would need to have different information for the brain to work with. So in conclusion a new word needs to be made to replace choice as there really is none.

This is an interesting and excellent point. It reminds me of a hypothetical we discussed in my Minds and Machines class:

If a world were created as a complete mirror of our current world, that is to say, the physics are identical, and the version of yourself on that planet is in every every way similar to yourself (upbringing and so forth too), would that person be in the exact same position as your original self in 50 years?

It becomes difficult to articulate why there would be a difference, which would be at ends with the idea of free will that we all cherish. It seems to me that we are slaves (at least currently) to our biology and the physics that make up our world. It becomes odd to me when I'm in a situation and feel about 75% sure that I'm making the right decision. This doesn't mean that 3/4 times I would make that decision, but rather that 100% of the time I will favor one choice over another.

Consciousness is crazy my friends.

I have brought this up before but, at times, free will, to me, only comes into play when we consciously decide to resist the natural flow of events.

In nature, I would say, typically most things, including animals, take the path of least resistance. There are times when we as humans know what we ought to be doing(or are at least deliberating a choice between something which would be easy and something that would be more effort consuming) but doing so would require an act against the natural flow of events at the time.

For example, say someone is walking along at a somewhat brisk pace(maybe their late for something) and they accidentally drop a small piece of unimportant paper but notice themselves do so. I would say most would heavily consider continuing on. This, to me, would be going with the natural flow of events. In this situation, I think one has the opportunity to employ their free will by resisting this flow and stopping and going back to pick it up and dispose of it properly.

Now this is quite an arbitrary analogy but I think it at least exemplify what I mean when I say resist the natural flow of events.

Having said that, I will note that going with the natural flow of events is not a bad things in and of itself. But in each moment we must attempt to be conscious of both the natural flow of events and what is important to us so that we can make sure we are flowing in the direction we ought to be.

I have but a vague notion of what you mean by "the natural flow of events", so I can make only a very vague comment about what you have just posted. However, suppose I meet a girl, I fall in love with her, and I marry her. I would say that is an example of the natural flow of events. But, according to you, because I did not consciously resist this natural flow of events, I did not marry the girl I married of my own free will. Is that what you are arguing? If it is, I find that rather disconcerting, since you are denying I married of my own free will for precisely the reason that I, and most who speak English, would say that I did marry of my own free will! I wonder whether it was because of episodes like this that Cicero remarked that there is nothing so absurd that some philosopher has not said it.