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Is there universal Good or it's all subjective?

 
 
gen66
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:02 am
Is there universal Good or it's all subjective?


(you can substitute him/his with her/hers wherever you like, no discrimination).

Most religions do say that there is universal good (in a moral aspect) and we should aim for it if we want to be truly happy.
And Yes I admit it's quite easy for a human brain to have aim, to have a line, to aim to reach the line and to keep it, aims are what we are all about afterall otherwise energy is wasted. It's really more convenient for me to have universal good. It's better that way. It keeps the balance.
Just imagine the three lines: upper is GOOD middle is NEUTRAL lower is BAD and it's a choice, if you want true happiness change yourself be good reach the good line, let's say more people live in a mix, good,netural, bad with fluctuations. Most are in neutral with variation of good and bad.
So if we go to the BAD line we can't feel happiness and so on.Here comes the question, is there some universal that we should aim for, is the upper line (GOOD) universal for every human being or every single indivdual on this Earth has his own GOOD/NEUTRAL/BAD lines in the brain which are formed differently and it depends on him.

Arguments that it's all subjective and it's all individual about the good/bad:

I'll look at humans as BRAINS.
Development of every single brain depends on internal and external factors. Internal are the individuality of the brain, neuron networks, its connections, dna, deep psychic, predisposals etc. external of course is the outer world which includes everything (environment, people etc.).
So how we form the perception of what's good and bad? We form everything because of the internal and external factors.

External are - from childhood we hear from parents,friends,media,religion, from wherever/whoever/whatever you can imagine we'll pick those things for the morality.

Interal are- Our own consciousness, we don't want to do something that we don't want to be done to ourselves. This is one thing that forms some part of our morality. Also we are effected from public reactions on our actions. For example, you kick somebody and just look at the crowds reactions comments etc. This is valid of every single ,,BAD,, thing you can think of. There are some other internals as well but I think you got the idea Smile
Tadaa we have a morality. We do ,,GOOD,, we happy, we do ,,BAD,, we unhappy. ANd why? Cause deeply rooted in our brains is what is good what not and thus it makes us feel better or not etc.(or more complex thoughts of such variations). PLus if you do GOOD, you survive more, you are treated good from the society and we are social creatures etc. Reasons are many. And of course in this scenario where there are no universals we have all type of scenarios, where for exmaple some crazy wired brain feels good from doing stuff that the crowd considers as very BAD. He lies, he kills etc. and he feels good about it, cause his brain is individual and is wired in a such way that get true happiness from doing what's bad. But is that really possible?

Arguments that there is absolute universal GOOD.

I'm saying only GOOD, not universal BAD, not universal NETURAL(lol), just universal GOOD, the thing that you should reach to feel truly happy.
So, arguments are mostly of religious apsect, just take Christiany and Buddihsm for exmaple...
Most arguments come from my experience. The strange thing is that I've tried everything, I cleared my brain of many barries, I've cleared my brain of everything I could think of, and in the basics it seems that there is something I cannot override,reporgram, maniuplate.... There is something like inbuilt mechanism. This mechanism works in the following way:

WHen I do good(the universal one made up by religion), I feel good, I feel it right, it fills me with happiness for UNKNOWN REASON. Everything else is not the most right way.I can even do some actions or think some thoughts without prejudices and I feel very good about what I've done or thought.After that I ask myself, ok let me check according to the COMMUNITY where my actions and my thoughts go(in which category). I realzie that those things go to the UNIVERSAL CATEGORY of GOOD.
Universal GOOD is - don't lie, don't hurt anybody, help others,don't steal etc many other UNIVERSAL things you know them...)
And when I actually have in my head thoughts of (hatred,lust,anger etc etc etc etc Universal things as well) it feels selfdestructing.
So why? It feels like a natural PATH i should follow and I'm HAPPY? I think I'm cleared of all internal/external effects and still there is this PATH that my inbuilt mechanism needs to follow to be happy? Why why why?
Questions that arise: If there is UNIVERSAL GOOD, who THOUGHT OF IT? Is it just the way universe is? Who said that LIE is BAD and why when I LIE I feel BAD for absolutely UNKOWN REASONS ( I even reporgrammed my mind for a long time saying LIE is the best thing ,. it's individual, it's only me, only in my mind, it's what I learned by now, I have a choice, I can change it, I can LIE and be ok with it) NOPE, no matter what I BELIEVE and how I reprogrammed my mind the inbuilt mechanism still works and when i LIE i may not be feeling bad....but I'm definetely not feeling good EITHER! The best thing I think a brain can achieve(a ,,sick,, brain) is when somebody commits a murder, he can either feel neutral or feel phantom happiness but not real happiness. Basically those are my arguments that there is universal good which should be followed.

The Phantom Happiness and Real Happiness

Just to clear things out, there is ,,happiness,, that you might be able to feel even when doing all the universal BAD things.
You might feel happy when you KILL etc etc etc.(this is the case with the Killers, I think they Kill, they satisify their need and they THINK they feel HAPPY, truly happy, but I think it's the same happiness as to take your dosage of drugs, the as when you eat a lot, the same as you satisfy some basic needs, the same as you buy something new, such type of happiness, so when a serial killer kills he feels something like that but can never be truly happy). This for me and according to my theory is phantom happiness.
May be you also felt phantom happiness many times like: When you have a LOT OF MONEY, when you have POWER, when you have a lot of material things for exmaple, when you REVENGE etc etc etc. This is all phantom happiness and it's just a delusion.
True happiness? What is that? I think it has nothing to the with the MATERIAL WORLD, in none of the aspects of true happiness you can connect it anyhow with the material word. Secondly, let's just say it's something like when you feel LOVE(for whomever thinks he/she really felt it). It's something that you can use the word divine to try to describe it. It's very modest, it's quiet, it's silence, it's piece and at the same time full of energy, it's everything and nothing(no matter how cliche this may sound). Something that excludes all the charateristics of EGO (as commonly described).That's divine. And....I think that a killer cannot feel that, no matter how his individual brain is wired, I think that a person who does universal BAD THINGS cannot feel that, he/she can feel it after he/she changes may be, but not during or after the action of ,,evil,,.

So...please share your thoughts, find weak spots in my thoughts and share them as well....Thank you.
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xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:25 am
@gen66,
We are the only visible means the universe can comprehend good or bad . Without us the concept is not visible.
gen66
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:35 am
@xris,
,,We are the only visible means the universe can comprehend good or bad . Without us the concept is not visible.,, (sry for the lame quote, browser issues)

So xris, that's right, our minds put definitions to things. That's not bad at all, we need to explain it somehow and to express ourselves. I'm talking about Universal GOOD only about us humans....universal for the entire humanity. That is what I mean.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:51 am
@gen66,
Universal good is an invention of mans. It appears to have been encouraged by great teachers. Take mercy it has to be taught, it was not an accepted action in our history , it was reserved for family members. It never appeared to be a natural emotion of our ancestors. Just look at history, it is a very rare event.

Loving your enemy is a concept, that even now is very hard for civilised man to comprehend. We may have improved but this universal goodness is still evolving. Its may have a destiny but we are far from achieving this perfection.
gen66
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:12 am
@xris,
xris;108778 wrote:
Universal good is an invention of mans. It appears to have been encouraged by great teachers. Take mercy it has to be taught, it was not an accepted action in our history , it was reserved for family members. It never appeared to be a natural emotion of our ancestors. Just look at history, it is a very rare event.

Loving your enemy is a concept, that even now is very hard for civilised man to comprehend. We may have improved but this universal goodness is still evolving. Its may have a destiny but we are far from achieving this perfection.


About the history I consider it normal, people have evolved minds since then, who said the people experienced true happiness back then? (I mean most of them)... Loving your enemy is not so hard according to my view and my experience.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 01:02 pm
@gen66,
gen66;108779 wrote:
About the history I consider it normal, people have evolved minds since then, who said the people experienced true happiness back then? (I mean most of them)... Loving your enemy is not so hard according to my view and my experience.
who knows what true happiness is? Historically loving thy enemy was a very alien conception.
0 Replies
 
Simply simple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 11:07 pm
Based on my understanding of the discussion, i believe that "universal good," is what almost everyone will consider to be "the acceptable", in other words "the right thing to do." Also subjectivity in this context, is rather, a conviction, firm believe and feeling in your deep psych as to what is "Good," rather than being objective, which will be more factual. To clarify, i agree that "universal good" is a mere conception of the human mind and i believe it is very subjective. it is beyond human understanding to give a good reason of why good is good, and bad, bad, notwithstanding the fact that most people will say it makes you feel good, or just right. I do believe there's universal good, but i also understand that everyone's definition to that phrases is different, because it all goes back to the convictions and beliefs they have picked up along the way, in other words i'ts all about values.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 11:32 pm
@gen66,
Quote:
I'm talking about Universal GOOD only about us humans....universal for the entire humanity.


It doesn't make any sense to use the word "universal" in anything that relates to humans. Humans are a completely insignificant part of the universe. We have been here for a brief instant and occupy an invisible speck on an invisible spec. At any moment life on Earth could be wiped out by a stray gamma ray burst... this minor event wouldn't impact the universe one bit. The Universe would continue on without any change.

Douglas Adams said it best...

Quote:
And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.
AugustineBrother
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:38 am
@maxdancona,
you are saying what Bertrand Russell said. But his own daughter became a Christian because she found out we are not insignificant. I won't argue that because you seem to derive joy from the frustration of your own immortality and importance, but I will ask: Why is important for you that others are wrong?
0 Replies
 
AugustineBrother
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:40 am
@xris,
I think most people DO comprehend it. They just don't DO it.
You want us to be pure mind, no will. And that is a great part of the problem with the world.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:50 am
@AugustineBrother,
Re Addressing Xris: 6-yr-old thread this time. Noticing the Timestamps might save you some time and embarrassment. That way you can spew and be ignored by active members.
AugustineBrother
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2016 01:27 pm
@Ragman,
Only you Ragman have expire dates on Truth. But I am glad you admit it.
Peace
0 Replies
 
AugustineBrother
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2016 03:31 pm
@gen66,
IF there is a God that is the Universal Good.
When the Psalm says

Psalm 37:4

4 Then you will delight yourself in Adonai,
and he will give you your heart’s desire.

--that is the subjective counterpart.

But most important is the Biblical caveat to both statements, namely (and this is said twice in the Bible, a rarity for the Bible): Many are the ways that seem right to a man but lead only to Death.

So Subjectivism is not just warned against it is condemned. You need the Truth, first of all.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2016 06:46 pm
@AugustineBrother,
I don't think you want to go to the Old Testament in a thread about universal good. God commanded His people to kill men, women and children.

The God of the Bible has the capacity to do great evil.



0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 03:14 pm
There is Universal Reason...
0 Replies
 
 

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