Letter to a fundamental Christan

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- Thanks I have also had to through the road of fundamental dogma and really think about the horrors of an everlasting hell for a finite sin in this brief existence on earth.
- An infinite punishment for a finite sin (not fair to me) I realize that I Alan, who am not perfect love, would never ever confine even a Hitler into this eternal hell. Then how much infinitely less likely would our beloved Holy Father God of eternal mercy and LOVE punish a mere mortal in this ultimately awful way?
- I truly love God and his son Jesus but know that he equally loves those that do not know him. "God loves the whole world has equal mercy for all and I trust their eternal healing of their souls to him". I hope I have expressed myself properly.
- Yes, Hitler was cruel but why must we bring God down to the level of this psychopath? However,
- God is sovereign and will do just what he wants in the end and I cannot dictate what he will do. I can express, however, what I believe to be true even if I am wrong. note nearly every Christian I have met over these long years have each had a slightly or markedly different understanding of biblical interpretation and I have finally reached the point where I have made up my own mid about the matter of an eternal hell If God simply throws every non born again person on earth into everlasting torment then his earthly creation is one colossal failure the truth on this matter.

Below is a comment I received from an ex. pastor

Yes, Alan that is right, and you know, I was so liberated and truly free once the lord woke me up to the brainwashing lies of the ministry. I was in the ministry for 17 yrs. and followed what I was brainwashed to follow .how do they even get away with this is beyond me. what ever a man sewes,so shall he reaps, and god will not be mocked, is a dead giveaway that god does not have a eternal torture chamber to abort his children in, that were taught wrong, dressed wrong, talked wrong, or got brainwashed by the wrong preacher.

In addition, the fact, if you reap what you sew, then why would he punish you again? Does a non-Christian who lives a fairly modest and good life not sew what he reaps is he not punished by god the righteous judge in a in a fair way in, accordance with the severity of his sins. Are his sins infinite like eternal damnation? That would be double jeopardy. {2 punishments for one crime}.I have been screaming like a bungee for folks to wake up!

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@Alan McDougall,

I am extremely hesitant to bring this point up, especially around non-believers,(because I think it sets a bad precedent) but through my understanding of the bible, I think eventually everyone is saved; maybe not initially but in the end. I'm not saying there is no Hell, or that no one goes to Hell(I'm not saying there is or they do either), but if they do I do not believe it lasts forever.

And I think that people who don't or won't accept Christianity can be saved because through the circumstances of their lives they may not be in a position to 'truly' hear the calling but through the deeds of their heart, they still live by Gods code. Same with people of other religions.
This is just my personal belief though and I could very well be wrong.

This is probably pretty controversial in the Christian view but I still consider myself to be a Christian and I think there are plenty of places in the bible that bear this out not the least of which would be 1 Timothy 4:10.
I feel like this issue is a sort of hush-hush, just below the surface concept that, IMO, spells itself out throughout scripture.

2 Replies

@Amperage,

Amperage;122109 wrote:

I am extremely hesitant to bring this point up, especially around non-believers,(because I think it sets a bad precedent) but through my understanding of the bible, I think eventually everyone is saved; maybe not initially but in the end. I'm not saying there is no Hell, or that no one goes to Hell(I'm not saying there is or they do either), but if they do I do not believe it lasts forever.

And I think that people who don't or won't accept Christianity can be saved because through the circumstances of their lives they may not be in a position to 'truly' hear the calling but through the deeds of their heart, they still live by Gods code. Same with people of other religions.
This is just my personal belief though and I could very well be wrong.

This is probably pretty controversial in the Christian view but I still consider myself to be a Christian and I think there are plenty of places in the bible that bear this out not the least of which would be 1 Timothy 4:10.
I feel like this issue is a sort of hush-hush, just below the surface concept that, IMO, spells itself out throughout scripture.

It also assumes that Christianity is following the correct god. Which is a little funny when there are thousands of them. Always sounds presumptuous to say everyone will eventually be saved by god. So all this is just a psychological test?

"Oh I was only seeing how you would react, come on in, the heaven is fine. No one goes to hell these days, not after I realized it was really bad on my part to send people there. It's only used as the broom closet now. Where is Thor? Oh Thor doesn't exist only I do. If it sounds like I am speaking Japanese, it's because I am. You see Japanese is actually the language of heaven. I know you probably would have guess Aramaic or Hebrew, na it's always been Japanese. When you arrive you immediately know how to speak it even if you never heard a single word. But just in case there is a problem, we have the universal translator turned on so that everyone can understand each other. Oh and don't mind those people screaming and crying over there, they are just upset that I wouldn't allow their crippled child in here. They should have read the manual I sent them specifically stating that I don't like physical deformities here."

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@Krumple,

Krumple;122117 wrote:

"Oh I was only seeing how you would react, come on in, the heaven is fine. No one goes to hell these days, not after I realized it was really bad on my part to send people there. It's only used as the broom closet now. Where is Thor? Oh Thor doesn't exist only I do. If it sounds like I am speaking Japanese, it's because I am. You see Japanese is actually the language of heaven. I know you probably would have guess Aramaic or Hebrew, na it's always been Japanese. When you arrive you immediately know how to speak it even if you never heard a single word. But just in case there is a problem, we have the universal translator turned on so that everyone can understand each other. Oh and don't mind those people screaming and crying over there, they are just upset that I wouldn't allow their crippled child in here. They should have read the manual I sent them specifically stating that I don't like physical deformities here."

Not living a life guided by God leads us to miss out on countless blessings. And those who are sent to Hell are justified in being there, however, IMO, I believe God will eventually rescue them despite this fact for God is love and He will eventually save them because Jesus died for all. There will be no crippled nor handicapped people in the afterlife for in the words of Paul "it is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
I believe I am following the laws God has written on my heart whether God is the Christian God or not.

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@Alan McDougall,

There are several issues going on here.

Quote:

An infinite punishment for a finite sin (not fair to me)

I agree with this statement, but have an issue with the inference, which is 'our sins are finite'.
If I (a finite creature) sin against another finite creature, then it is a finite sin, incurring a finite debt, requiring a finite restitution.
If I (a finite creature) sin against an infinite being, then it is an infinite sin, incurring an infinite debt, requiring an infinite restitution.

since I am finite.
God is infinite.
and I have sinned against God.
Then I have incurred an infinite debt that requires an infinite repayment.
(Actually I have to be honest, I have incurred quite a few infinite debts)

Quote:

our beloved Holy Father God of eternal mercy and LOVE

Remember that our infinitely loving and merciful Father is also infinitely just and must retain both His love and justice.

There are several other things I could comment on, but this should be a good start.

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@Amperage,

Amperage;122109 wrote:

I am extremely hesitant to bring this point up, especially around non-believers,(because I think it sets a bad precedent) but through my understanding of the bible, I think eventually everyone is saved; maybe not initially but in the end. I'm not saying there is no Hell, or that no one goes to Hell(I'm not saying there is or they do either), but if they do I do not believe it lasts forever.

And I think that people who don't or won't accept Christianity can be saved because through the circumstances of their lives they may not be in a position to 'truly' hear the calling but through the deeds of their heart, they still live by Gods code. Same with people of other religions.
This is just my personal belief though and I could very well be wrong.

This is probably pretty controversial in the Christian view but I still consider myself to be a Christian and I think there are plenty of places in the bible that bear this out not the least of which would be 1 Timothy 4:10.
I feel like this issue is a sort of hush-hush, just below the surface concept that, IMO, spells itself out throughout scripture.

First, let's eliminate the idea that only knowing the Christian God counts. After all, Christ=God=eternal spirit=love is in the New Testament, so it does not make sense that God is limited to the teachings of one incarnation in 1st century AD, does it?

The "natural theology" of Romans I --that ALL men have the chance to know God -- is cited by many. I'd add Matthew 12, starting at v.30, in which it is said the blasphemy against the Father or Son will be forgiven, but NOT blasphemy against the "holy spirit". Does this not imply that the "spirit" of the New Testament God, very pronounced in the repeated dictates of Christ to love and care for our brothers and sisters, is what counts?

That view is strongly supported by Matthew Ch 25, starting at v. 30, when Jesus is asked about the end-time separation of sheep/goats. Note that many who cry "Lord, Lord" don't make the cut. The criteria is very clearly stated in Jesus's well known answer, "as you have done for the least of these, so you have done unto me".

There are more verses scattered throughout the New Testament to support this view that following the "spirit" of the New Testament God, which is love (I Epistle of John: "God is Love"), shown by our love for our fellow man, is the central point.

Now as for hell and salvation... Like you, I'm not comfortable with the "condemned to eternal damnation" issue, and I'm glad you brought up the verse in Timothy. I believe that in the end, all will be saved. Some of us may spend a little longer in purgatory, but, as my husband once said, "No one gets to heaven till we all do." "Hell" to me equates with something like, maybe, a long sentence doing "hard-time" in purgatory to bring one's soul "back to itself".

But if even I am incapable of NOT loving all my children, no matter what they do, and I would never condemn them or anyone else to eternal damnation -- how can my flawed mortal love be greater than He who is Love itself? That makes no sense.

rebecca

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@Alan McDougall,

The Bible is pretty clear that Hell is forever. For example, Revelation 20:10:

Quote:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Of course, most Christians simply ignore whatever verses they personally don't like, and pretend that what it clearly says means something else. If they were right, it would mean that the Bible is extremely poorly written, if the clear and unambiguous words really are to be taken to mean something entirely different. If they were consistent, they must believe that the Bible is written with the design to deceive people, since many people have taken the above verse to mean what it clearly says. How silly they were to do that!

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@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;124420 wrote:

The Bible is pretty clear that Hell is forever. For example, Revelation 20:10

just for starters this verse says nothing about humans. And the bible does explain that Hell is designed for Satan and his demons. But honestly I could be wrong. Like I said, mine is an opinion not widely embraced by Christians on the whole. But through my understanding of the word of God, it is the conclusion I've come to.

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@Amperage,

Amperage;124440 wrote:

just for starters this verse says nothing about humans. And the bible does explain that Hell is designed for Satan and his demons. But honestly I could be wrong. Like I said, mine is an opinion not widely embraced by Christians on the whole. But through my understanding of the word of God, it is the conclusion I've come to.

You don't seriously expect us to believe that you imagine the Bible doesn't mention people going to Hell, do you?

But here you go, Revelation 14:

Quote:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 5:22 (supposedly the words of Jesus, by the way):

Quote:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18 (again, the words of Jesus):

Quote:

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:

Quote:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I won't bother looking up more on Hell for you, as you should be able to find these things for yourself.

The preachers who have preached about hellfire and damnation got their ideas from reading the Bible. If they are wrong about hellfire and damnation for unbelievers, the Bible is, at the very least, an extremely misleading book, if not simply a pack of lies.

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@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;124469 wrote:

The preachers who have preached about hellfire and damnation got their ideas from reading the Bible. If they are wrong about hellfire and damnation for unbelievers, the Bible is, at the very least, an extremely misleading book, if not simply a pack of lies.

I never said people do not go to Hell. It's just my opinion that they will eventually be spared if they do.

Revelations 22:3 says "There will no longer be any curse"

and Revelations 15:1 says "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Meaning there will be a point when the God's wrath is finished.

and 1 Timothy 4:10 says that "...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
Notice how there are 2 groups here: (1) all men (2) believers.
God is the savior of both groups though.
And IMHO I believe group (1) minus the (2)subset(believers may not necessarily mean followers of Jesus per say either) may have to endure some sort of punishment or something but it will certainly end at some point, IMO.

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@Amperage,

Amperage;124475 wrote:

I never said people do not go to Hell. It's just my opinion that they will eventually be spared if they do.

Revelations 22:3 says "There will no longer be any curse"

and Revelations 15:1 says "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Meaning there will be a point when the God's wrath is finished.

and 1 Timothy 4:10 says that "...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
Notice how there are 2 groups here: (1) all men (2) believers.
God is the savior of both groups though.
And IMHO I believe group (1) minus the (2)subset(believers may not necessarily mean followers of Jesus per say either) may have to endure some sort of punishment or something but it will certainly end at some point, IMO.

Look again at the quote from Revelation 14 above.

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@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;124490 wrote:

Look again at the quote from Revelation 14 above.

yes, it says they will drink the wine of the wrath of God. But Rev 15:1 clearly states that God's wrath will end. The bottom line is this:
(1) either the many verses that claim that the punishment will go on "forever and ever" or "everlasting" or whatever they say mean exactly that all the verses that I quoted(and many more that support my position) are lies
or
(2) what is meant by "forever and ever" or "everlasting" is like the end of a time or an age or an era as is written in certain translations. Thereby making those verses correct while also maintaining the verses I quoted as correct.

Once again I may very will be wrong. This is just something I believe, others' mileage may vary.

*EDIT*
read all those verses as quoted from the Young's Literal Translation

1 Reply

@Amperage,

Amperage;124492 wrote:

yes, it says they will drink the wine of the wrath of God. But Rev 15:1 clearly states that God's wrath will end. The bottom line is this:
(1) either the many verses that claim that the punishment will go on "forever and ever" or "everlasting" or whatever they say mean exactly that all the verses that I quoted(and many more that support my position) are lies
or
(2) what is meant by "forever and ever" or "everlasting" is like the end of a time or an age or an era as is written in certain translations. Thereby making those verses correct while also maintaining the verses I quoted as correct.

Revelation 14:11:

Quote:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [emphasis added]: and they have no rest day nor night, ...

They may continue burning after God's wrath has ended; i.e., after God is no longer angry. There is no need for God to stop something from continuing.

Going back to your earlier post:

Amperage;124475 wrote:

I never said people do not go to Hell. It's just my opinion that they will eventually be spared if they do.

Revelations 22:3 says "There will no longer be any curse"

If we look at the context, it may mean that there will no longer be any curse on the new earth (feel free to look it all up and read the intervening passages; I just don't want this post to be too long or for one to lose sight of the verses that are quoted):

Quote:

Chapter 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

...

Chapter 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

It does not say, there will be no more Hell.

Amperage;124475 wrote:

and Revelations 15:1 says "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Meaning there will be a point when the God's wrath is finished.

So God is no longer angry. That does not mean that Hell will end. If it did, then there would be a problem with the verses that tell us it goes on for ever and ever. Unless, of course, we choose to imagine that those verses do not mean what they say, but mean something else. But if one were going to do that, why not imagine this other verse said something else instead? But, really, we do not have to go there, because saying that God is no longer angry is not the same as saying that Hell comes to an end. Those are completely separate concepts.

Amperage;124475 wrote:

and 1 Timothy 4:10 says that "...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
Notice how there are 2 groups here: (1) all men (2) believers.
God is the savior of both groups though.
And IMHO I believe group (1) minus the (2)subset(believers may not necessarily mean followers of Jesus per say either) may have to endure some sort of punishment or something but it will certainly end at some point, IMO.

This one could mean a couple of different things. It could mean what you say, which means there is a contradiction with the other stuff about Hell not ending. If so, then the Bible is unreliable, and cannot be trusted to guide us faithfully. Or it could mean that there is only one Saviour, which is available to everyone, whether they are a believer or not. Or it could mean that of those who will be saved, God is the Saviour, which includes current believers and people who do not yet believe. These alternatives do not seem completely satisfactory for 1 Timothy 4:10. Compare with:

1 Timothy 2

Quote:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 4:42:

Quote:

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 1:29:

Quote:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

These do not all say quite the same thing, though they are very similar, and might mean the same thing (insofar as they reference the Savior of the world). In any case, it is not clear how 1 Timothy 4:10, read literally, fits with Revelation 14:9-11.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

I'm somewhat surprised you're having this debate with me(not to imply I think I'm a good debater or something) but let us continue:

Follow me for a bit. The bible clearly demonstrates several things:

(1) 1 Timothy 2:4 (in my NASB) says God desires ALL men to be saved
(2) 1 Timothy 4:10 says God is the savior of all men

So the question becomes does the bible say anything about God's desires?

(3) Isaiah 46:10 say ...well I'll start from verse 8. "Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure' ";

What this tells us that what God purposes/desires WILL be established and He WILL accomplish what he desires.

(4) Isaiah 55:11 says this "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

Again we see that whatever God desires is what will happen.

So at this point we can sum it up like this:

1. Whatever God desires is what will happen(Isaiah 55:11)
2. God desires all men to be saved(1 Timothy 2:4)

Now lets look at Isaiah 45:23 and we see these words written, "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."

We see here that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance

So now we stand here:

1. Whatever God desires is what will happen(Isaiah 55:11)
2. God desires all men to be saved(1 Timothy 2:4)
3. Every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance(Isaiah 45:32)

Next lets see how we are saved

In John 6:38-40 says this: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

so we see those who believe in Jesus are saved.

Why are those who believe in Jesus saved?
2 Corinthians 5:21 says that "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Now consider this:
John 6:44 says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him;"

who gets drawn to him?

John 12:32 says this "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So we see here all men get drawn to Him

This bible states in Ephesians 2:8 that "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
So we know we are saved by faith through grace; neither of which comes from ourselves
So who does God bestow His grace on?
The bible also states in Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men"
So God bestows his grace on ALL men

So in conclusion we have this

1. Whatever God desires is what will happen(Isaiah 55:11)
2. God desires all men to be saved(1 Timothy 2:4)
3. Every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance(Isaiah 45:32)
4. God sent Jesus to save us(John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 5:21)
5. We are saved by grace(Ephesians 2:8)
6. Everyone receives God's grace(Titus 2:11)

Consider also that the word of God is alluded to in 1 Peter as being preached even after death in 4:6 and also 3:19, so perhaps,if Hell is where humans go, then they are given the opportunity to convert and obviously according to verses I've quoted above, eventually will.

Next consider this:

Romans 11:32 says "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

So explain to me how God can show mercy to all if any should perish eternally?

We know God is Love according to 1 John 4:8 which states "The one who does not love does not know god, for God is love."

and we know according to 1 Corinthians 13:4 that "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;"

And in Matthew 5:43 these words are written , "You have heard that it is said, 'you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The implication here is that God loves even His enemies and love forgives and shows mercy.

IMO it's evident that eventually ALL will be saved.
As I suggested earlier and as can be seen in the Young's Literal Translation those verses you quoted are specifically referring to the end of an age(end of time) and do not explicitly imply endlessness

Once again I could be completely wrong on this.....this is just my belief

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@Amperage,

Quote:

that last bit was to represent perfection necessary for approaching, in the pre-Jesus era, though.

The superficiality of the notion
Quote:
I don't like physical deformities here.
makes it sound distinctly a human idea.

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Letter to a fundamental Christan

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