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Is it OK that Muslims & Amish will be excused from ObamaCare mandate?

 
 
Buffalo
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:37 pm
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/03/amish_muslims_to_be_excused_fr.html

(Information below was copied and pasted from the link above)
By the way.... This information I copied and pasted below was just from the FIRST link I saw. If you Google "Muslim ObamaCare" you will find many links from many different sources stating the same information.
*****************************************************************

March 24, 2010
Amish, Muslims to be excused from Obamacare mandate?
WordWayze
The Senate health care bill just signed contains some exemptions to the "pay-or-play" mandate requiring purchase of Obamacare-approved health insurance or payment of a penalty fine. As Fox News has pointed out, for instance, the Amish are excused from the mandate:

So while most Americans would be required to sign up with insurance companies or government insurance plans, the church would serve as something of an informal insurance plan for the Amish.

Law experts say that kind of exemption withstands scrutiny.

"Here the statute is going to say that people who are conscientiously opposed to paying for health insurance don't have to do it where the conscientious objection arises from religion," said Mark Tushnet a Harvard law professor. "And that's perfectly constitutional."


Apparently, this exemption will apply similarly to believers in Islam, which considers health insurance - and, for that matter, any form of risk insurance - to be haraam (forbidden).

Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light calls our attention to the probability that Muslims will also be expempt. According to a March 23 publication on an authoritative Islamic Web site managed by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, various fatwas (religious decrees) absolutely forbid Muslim participation in any sort of health care or other risk insurance:

Health insurance is haraam like other types of commercial insurance, because it is based on ambiguity, gambling and riba (usury). This is what is stated in fatwas by the senior scholars.

In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/277) there is a quotation of a statement of the Council of Senior Scholars concerning the prohibition on insurance and why it is haraam:

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/251):

Firstly: Commercial insurance of all types is haraam because it involves ambiguity, riba, uncertainty, gambling and consuming people's wealth unlawfully, and other shar'i

Secondly: It is not permissible for the Muslim to get involved with insurance companies by working in administration or otherwise, because working in them comes under the heading of cooperating in sin and transgression, and Allaah forbids that as He says: "but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment"

[al-Maa'idah 5:2]. End quote.

reservations.
And Allaah knows best.


So, it turns out that observant Muslims are not only strictly forbidden from buying any health insurance under the ObamaCare mandate, but may also not even work for any company that provides such insurance or any other form of commercial insurance.

It is not made clear whether or not it is religiously okay to accept "free" non-insured medical care such as that offered in hospital ERs and to some who are covered by Medicaid.

Whether it's all right to serve as a doctor, nurse, or orderly caring for patients whose medical services are being paid for by insurance is not covered in the present response - but one could probably obtain a religious ruling from the Sheikh, whose site welcomes the submission of questions about Islamic law and practices.

WordWayze is the nom de plume of a freelance writer and political pundit who would prefer not to become the object of any attention such has been paid to the Mohammed cartoonists of Denmark and others.
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:40 pm
@Buffalo,
so become a muslim or an amish

problem solved
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:44 pm
@djjd62,
Don't forget what today's date is, tsar.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:47 pm
@Merry Andrew,
not so sure the story isn't real, i do remember hearing something about the amish, and the fox news story in the link is from jan 16 2010
Buffalo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:54 pm
@Merry Andrew,
I hope you are correct djjd62... However, like I said, there are several links to the same information and the info from the above link apparently was posted prior to April 1. I didn't come up with the story. I heard it on the radio this morning and Googled it this afternoon. Personally, I hope it is incorrect also because it would be discriminatory against everyone else who will be forced to enroll. However, what if it IS correct?
Buffalo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:05 pm
@Buffalo,
Oops... I meant to address that to Merry Andrew.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  3  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:16 pm
@Buffalo,
Clearly, in that case, the Republic will crumble, we will fall into socialism and Sharia law will be imposed.

Then same-sex marriage will be ended in all states. All abortions will be outlawed and doctors who perform them will be punished. Children will be allowed to pray in schools and our government will start using torture against our enemies.

I shudder just thinking about it.

((of course there is the possibility is that we will just all learn to live simple lives making wooden furniture))


farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:21 pm
@Buffalo,
Its true. Yave gotta know a little about AMSIH history on the subject of "welfare". Their entire society is based upon a strict interpretation of several passages in the New Testament (Timmy I, 5:8) and (Cor II 6:14) . As a group they feel negatively bound against any "buying in to any govt programs" (Unemployment taxes, Income taxes, Social Security, and ALL insurance). Their pacifist discipline goes back to the Civil War , but the "welfare opt outs" began with the case of Valentine Byler who, in 1961 , had his riding and dray stock amd tack and means of transportation taken and sold at auction to cover his tax bills. This incident received such notoriety that the IRS chief put a moratorium on further such actions until the constitutionality of the code and its requirements were tested. In 1965, as part of the Medicare Law, there were several clauses that allowed the opting out of self employment taxes under form 4029.. The optee must be a memebr of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to all kinds if social security benefits and also the same the religious sect must show that it has made provisons for all forms of welfare for its sick, infirm, aged, and poor.
Then, Since 1988 Congress stated that employers do not have to collect wage taxes from AMish who worked off the farm.
All Amish communities have formulated plans to cover all sorts of sharing of losses from fire, etc. Each region (several dozen Bishoprics) established its own membership into what are known as Amish Aid Plans (its interesting that all banks honor these aid plans and allow loans against them ). As far as hospitalization, their internal "OldOrder" health insurance has been running since the 1965 US Medicare law and is working just fine.
SO the Amish object to any care or remuneration coming from any government and the Health CAre Law recently signed by the President is just one more example of their self sufficiency.

Im no AMish scholar but I live among em and a neighbnor is An Qmish bishop who loves to discuss their beliefs in welfare and humane care among them all.

I know nothing about Muslim opt out clauses though.
Merry Andrew
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:32 pm
@ebrown p,
D'you reckon all the Tea Party types will now join the Amish to get away from the dreaded Obamacare phantom? Or would they be happier as Muslims, waging jihad against the government?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:34 pm
@Merry Andrew,
now that obama is gonna drill off shore they won't want to give up their SUV's, so i'm guessing muslim
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:51 pm
@djjd62,
Yeh, I think you're right. Can't see those types being just plain folk with horse and buggy.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:04 pm
@djjd62,
This is what I found earlier today when this first came up...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080315100844AA9n7NT

Quote:
There is an old argument (from the 1950s), even by those who oppose insurance, that whenever insurance is forced by law, one must do it and one is excused, from the Shari'ah point of view. This include car insurance, social security, workman compensation, and employer's imposed insurance if it is not optional for the employee to this we add another element that if the insurance provided by the employer is paid completely from the employer, i.e., given as a fringe benefit without deducting any part of the premium from the pay checks, then it is a kind of grant from the employer and if a hazard happens the paid policy amount is halal because it is an outcome of the grant.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:18 pm
@farmerman,
Very interesting post, farmerman, re the Amish. Thank you.

I know nothing about the purported Muslim exclusion, but I must admit to being skeptical at first blush. You know: Obama = Muslim = Terrorists.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:20 pm
@JPB,
yeah, i believe the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:26 pm
@JPB,
The 1965 Medicare law did NOT specifically name QAmish, but identified opting out based upon the religious conviction. The second part was that this same religion must have a policy that proves that the religion is already operating an internal welfare and health care and community insurance program. Im not sure that Islam in the US can show that.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:34 pm
@farmerman,
interesting. And I have no idea either re self-insurance among American Muslims.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 06:42 pm
@JPB,
There was a piece on the CBC this morning about the alternatives that one Muslim group has come up with to the use of credit cards. Again, it's because of the strictures against usury.

Since credit cards are required in so many situations these days (car rental, buying online), they've developed some variant on a debit card that is accepted by companies that want credit card details.

I'll see if I can find a link .
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 07:31 pm
@ehBeth,
I think credit cards are evil (and I am not Muslim).

Can I get in on this deal?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 07:37 pm
@ebrown p,
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I heard the piece.

I just got off the phone with hamburger. He saw a longer piece on the CBC later today. I'm going to try to track it down.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 07:18 am
@Merry Andrew,
That's funny . . . I frankly think the Amish would be unhappy with Tea Party converts rushing the gates of their world. In my mind, the Tea Totalitarians are generally older women with 1950s hairdos and polyester pants with elastic waist bands, married to aging, potbellied former high school football stars and that they vacation in RVs. Somehow, all those RVs showing up in Lancaster, PA and rural Ohio would constitute an invasion. Besides, the lack of electricity would dismay the Tea Baggers.


Although I think that the Old Order Amish and strict Muslims might have some interesting dialogue on living by their respective Books.
0 Replies
 
 

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