Atheism

@layman,

I have no beliefs.

I have guesses, estimates, suppositions, and the like.

You apparently are going to insist that because I have those things...I have "beliefs."

I can tell you that I have been at war with the garbage that word causes for our society for over 20 years now...and have avoided "beliefs" like the plague. There is no way you are going to come here and tell me that you have decided that I do have beliefs.

There are people right now using that phony disguise for "guess" to rationalize not serving gays...just as there were people using that disguise to rationalize not serving blacks a while back. And that is just the tip of that "my beliefs" iceberg.

They are people who guess there is a GOD; guess the GOD has told them what pleases and offends IT; and they use that disguised guesswork like an army uses cannons, guns, and bayonets.

The disguise is used to DEMAND respect for crud no one should respect.

Anyone with your intelligence should, by now, recognize what has to be done...and it can only be done exactly as I am doing it.

I HAVE NO BELIEFS, Layman.

Join me...get the hell out of the way...or whatever you choose in between.

But don't think for one second you are going to demand that I accept "believe" in place of "blind guess"...

...'cause that ain't gonna happen.

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

It's funny that you have tried to turn this into a "poor me, everybody's trying to abuse me by dictating what I should say" issue when:

I do not play any victim cards, Layman...and I haven't here.

I'll take you and the entire forum on in this.

About a month ago...one guy said to me (during one of these things) something along the lines of, "You (meaning me) are one of these guys who shoots your mouth off...and then when challenged you run away and hide."

Yeah...that's really me!!!!

That makes about as much sense as that phony "poor me" crap you just tried.

I don't need any help. I've got this!

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I do not play any victim cards, Layman...and I haven't here.

Read your own posts, Frank. For the last few pages you have repeatedly claimed (or at least pretended) that others, by in any way questioning your usage, were trying to tell YOU how to use words. You seem to have a very low tolerance for any suggestion that you are not 100% correct, but that is really another issue.

The reason you even get any comment on these topics is because you routinely insinuate that anyone who doesn't adopt your usage is JUST PLAIN WRONG. You're a pot, trying to call a kettle "black," in that respect. And you do it all while claiming that you regard "labels" as insignificant. Go figure.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I can tell you that I have been at war with the garbage that word causes for our society for over 20 years now...Anyone with your intelligence should, by now, recognize what has to be done...and it can only be done exactly as I am doing it...Join me...get the hell out of the way...or whatever you choose in between....But don't think for one second you are going to demand that I accept "believe" in place of "blind guess," 'cause that ain't gonna happen.

Frank it is quite evident (from your usage of the term "at war," just for example) that this is a highly personal and emotional issue for you. I'm not criticizing that, but your particular situation does seem to be rather unique. And you do often appear to be on some kind of "crusade" which demands that the phrase "blind guess" be substituted for the word "belief."

As a consequence, you may strike some as being rather fanatical and out of the "main stream" in your views on this rather obscure issue, and in the vehemence with which you advocate them. As a consequence, speaking only for myself, I can't help but suspect that some of the posts you end up making on the topic reflect more on your emotions (dare I say "beliefs") than on your reflective thought.

1 Reply

@layman,

I do not play the victim card, Layman...EVER.

I did not here.

Stop with the nonsense.

I do not need help with what I am doing...and if the entire forum rallied against me, I would continue just as I am doing with you now.

0 Replies

@layman,

You shouldn't say "believe"...but I doubt that you will stop. You've been doing it right along...and I am sure getting a huge kick out of yourself for doing so.

Quote:

And you do often appear to be on some kind of "crusade" which demands that the phrase "blind guess" be substituted for the word "belief."

I have no idea if you are not as intelligent as I think you are and are truly missing the point...or if you are just trying some Internet forum tradecraft here...but you are way off base.

I will not use the word "belief" as a substitute for "blind guess."

That is different from demanding that anyone else use the word "belief" as a substitute for "guess."

IF I make a guess...I call it a guess. I do not call it a "belief."

You apparently have no problem doing that. So you can make a blind guess about whether a god exists or not...claim it is a belief...and then demand that society respect your right to your belief.

Fine. That is your right.

I'd prefer to be honest.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

So you can make a blind guess about whether a god exists or not...claim it is a belief...and then demand that society respect your right to your belief.

Fine. That is your right.

I'd prefer to be honest.

There again is the suggestion of "dishonesty" which you just denied making.

I have asked you before, but never saw any kind of meaningful response: What does "believing" (or not) in god, or anything else, add to or subtract from any proposition which a given person adheres to?

Are you angry that our constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion? Beliefs, as such, can claim no special entitlement to "respect," just because they are called beliefs, that I'm aware of. Me "believing" that women should be enslaved won't make my views any more or less "respectable" than if I simply advocate it for the profit of it all, without having a belief on how "right" it is, will it?

What, really, is your bitch about the word "belief?" I don't get it, and I get the impression that most others here don't either.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm trying to pin you down on this, Frank. Toward that end, let me ask you to consider two statements, viz.:

1. I believe there is a god.

2. I am convinced that there is a god.

Is there something about the first phrasing which calls for a "war with the garbage that word causes for our society for over 20 years now," but not the second?

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
So you can make a blind guess about whether a god exists or not...claim it is a belief...and then demand that society respect your right to your belief.

Fine. That is your right.

I'd prefer to be honest.

There again is the suggestion of "dishonesty" which you just denied making.

I have asked you before, but never saw any kind of meaningful response: What does "believing" (or not) in god, or anything else, add to or subtract from any proposition which a given person adheres to?

Are you angry that our constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion? Beliefs, as such, can claim no special entitlement to "respect," just because they are called beliefs, that I'm aware of. Me "believing" that women should be enslaved won't make my views any more or less "respectable" than if I simply advocate it for the profit of it all, without having a belief on how "right" it is, will it?

What, really, is your bitch about the word "belief?" I don't get it, and I get the impression that most others here don't either.

I want to call my guesses...guesses. I am tired of you demanding that I call them "beliefs"...so that you can claim that I have beliefs.

But I thought I already mentioned that.

Calling them guesses rather than trying to disguise them with the word "belief" is more honest in my opinion. Apparently you do not agree.

What could I tell ya?

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

I'm trying to pin you down on this, Frank. Toward that end, let me ask you to consider two statements, viz.:

1. I believe there is a god.

2. I am convinced that there is a god.

Is there something about the first phrasing which calls for a "war with the garbage that word causes for our society for over 20 years now," but not the second?

Yes.

I've never heard anyone demand respect for what someone else is "convinced" of...but I have heard MANY demands for respect for someone's beliefs.

I would expect you have also.

If the people refusing to provide flowers to a gay wedding used the reasoning, "I am convinced gay wedding are wrong"...the crap would have hit the fan. But because they were able to say "My beliefs would be violated"...they get a pass.

They blindly guess there is a GOD; they blindly guess the GOD wants gays stoned to death for engaging in homosexual activity...and they are able to call it a "belief"...and have laws passed protecting their blind guesses because of that.

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I am tired of you demanding that I call them "beliefs"...so that you can claim that I have beliefs.

Can you cite one statement, any time, any place, EVER, which demostrates that I made any such "demand" on you? Ever?

1 Reply

@layman,

You claim I have beliefs.

The only way you can make that claim is to assert a demand that my guesses be considered beliefs...which is, in effect, demanding that I call them guesses.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

GOD wants gays stoned to death for engaging in homosexual activity...and they are able to call it a "belief"...and have laws passed protecting and have laws passed protecting their blind guesses because of that.

I had specifically asked you if you were angry because our constitution guaranteed the free exercise of religion. Can I take this response as a "yes" to that question?

Does the law allow them to stone gays to death, because they "believe" it is right?

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You're starting to sound as if, like Uncle Joe Stalin and Mao, you favor outlawing certain beliefs, eh, Frank? Do you?

0 Replies

@argome321,

Here are a few dictionary sites. Three of these definitions defines Guess when used as a verb as believing among others as thinking and estimating etc .

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/guess

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guess?s=t

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guess

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/guess

http://www.yourdictionary.com/guess
http://www.yourdictionary.com/guess

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If the people refusing to provide flowers to a gay wedding used the reasoning, "I am convinced gay wedding are wrong"...the crap would have hit the fan.

Speaking for myself, Frank, I wouldn't send flowers to a gay wedding, but it would have nothing to do with god. It would be based upon the "belief" that I don't want to, that's all.

Of course I'm aware that such a belief immediately places me within the category of mental illness called "homophobia." But I yam what I yam, what else can I say?

I guess I need to move to a country like Cuba, Russia, or other places where gay people are commited to mental institutions, and people with my beliefs aint, eh? Obviously, somebody needs to be removed from society here--better them than me, I figure.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

By the way, Ed, posting crap like this ain't gunna make ya no friends around this here joint, either, eh?:

Quote:

Vitalij Lazarʹevič Ginzburg, a Soviet physicist, wrote that the "Bolshevik communists were not merely atheists but, according to Lenin's terminology, militant atheists."...The atheism in communist regimes has been and continues to be militant atheism and various acts of repression including the razing of thousands of religious buildings and the killing, imprisoning, and oppression of religious leaders and believers....

The persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union was the result of the violently atheist Soviet government. In the first five years after the October Revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were murdered, many on the orders of Leon Trotsky. When Joseph Stalin came to power in 1927, he ordered his secret police, under Genrikh Yagoda to intensify persecution of Christians. In the next few years, 50,000 clergy were murdered, many were tortured, including crucifixion. "Russia turned red with the blood of martyrs", said Father Gleb Yakunin of the Russian Orthodox Church.[54] According to Orthodox Church sources, as many as fifty million Orthodox believers may have died in the twentieth century, mainly from persecution by Communists.

50 million!? Come on, NOBODY can believe that. It's a damn lie. I would bet dollars to donuts that it was no more than 45 million, tops.

0 Replies

@layman,

Hey, Layman...Nancy is asking me to cool it with the computer...so she can get some stuff done. I've squeezed her out a couple of times to tend to you...and for just a minute or so right now.

I'll get back to you in the morning.

Nice diversions, by the way.

Ain't gonna buy anything...but nice anyway.

My guesses are still gonna be my guesses...and I am not going to call them beliefs just because you want me to.

You gotta get over that...it will never sell. Even you don't really sound as though you are buying it.

It is becoming more and more apparent that you know I am right...but I don't mind you being stubborn. There actually are people who think I am also.

Anyway...later. Nancy gets the den back now.

Life is good...in fact, life is great. This has been a terrific day. Hope tomorrow is even better. Wink

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

For what its worth, Frank. . .
I believe your beliefs are guesses.
And I would not hesitate to guess that those aver that they see no reason to believe are simply ignoring reality by believing their assessment of reality is correct.

I know that's naive of me Laughing

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I would not hesitate to guess that those aver that they see no reason to believe are simply ignoring reality

Really? You've gone round and round the Mulberry bush with Frank and his insistence that his definition of belief is the only one that matters, and now you want do the same with his definition of reality?

I've seen this movie before. I know how it ends.

1 Reply

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