Germlat
 
  2  
Wed 17 Sep, 2014 08:11 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I have just started seeing ads for Atheist TV. I don't have any specifics. One of the ads says to come out of the closet.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10530698_307931766051754_8748833118674726139_n.png?oh=8f6c97ef2fdf42c8f4be3f346aa44938&oe=5487E2A3&__gda__=1419024767_e3d897f2ecea7e269e4ab360a9abb70f

I hope you don't get placed in handcuffs for that my bold friend!!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 02:36 pm
Seen this, about the interplay of Atheism and Feminism in Britain. I personally never was impressed by Dawkins, so I am not surprised.

Richard Dawkins has lost it: ignorant sexism gives atheists a bad name

Adam Lee - theguardian.com, Thursday 18 September 2014 06.45 EDT

I became an atheist on my own, but it was Richard Dawkins who strengthened and confirmed my decision. For a long time, I admired his insightful science writing, his fierce polemics, his uncompromising passion for the truth. When something I’d written got a (brief) mention in The God Delusion, it was one of the high points of my life.

So, I’m not saying this is easy, but I have to say it: Richard Dawkins, I’m just not that into you anymore.

The atheist movement – a loosely-knit community of conference-goers, advocacy organizations, writers and activists – has been wracked by infighting the last few years over its persistent gender imbalance and the causes of it. Many female atheists have explained that they don’t get more involved because of the casual sexism endemic to the movement: parts of it see nothing problematic about hosting conferences with all-male speakers or having all-male leadership – and that’s before you get to the vitriolic and dangerous sexual harassment, online and off, that’s designed to intimidate women into silence.

Richard Dawkins has involved himself in some of these controversies, and rarely for the better – as with his infamous “Dear Muslima” letter in 2011, in which he essentially argued that, because women in Muslim countries suffer more from sexist mistreatment, women in the west shouldn’t speak up about sexual harassment or physical intimidation. There was also his sneer at women who advocate anti-sexual harassment policies.

But over the last few months, Dawkins showed signs of détente with his feminist critics – even progress. He signed a joint letter with the writer Ophelia Benson, denouncing and rejecting harassment; he even apologized for the “Dear Muslima” letter. On stage at a conference in Oxford in August, Dawkins claimed to be a feminist and said that everyone else should be, too.

Then another prominent male atheist, Sam Harris, crammed his foot in his mouth and said that atheist activism lacks an “estrogen vibe” and was “to some degree intrinsically male”. And, just like that, the brief Dawkins Spring was over.

On Twitter these last few days, Dawkins has reverted to his old, sexist ways and then some. He’s been very busy snarling about how feminists are shrill harridans who just want an excuse to take offense, and how Harris’s critics (and his own) are not unlike thought police witch-hunter lynch mobs. Dawkins claimed that his critics are engaged in “clickbait for profit”, that they “fake outrage”, and that he wished there were some way to penalize them.

For good measure, Dawkins argued that rape victims shouldn’t be considered trustworthy if they were drinking.

Benson, with whom Dawkins had signed the anti-harassment letter just weeks earlier, was not impressed. “I’m surprised and, frankly, shocked by Richard’s belligerent remarks about feminist bloggers over the past couple of days,” she told me. “Part of what made The God Delusion so popular was, surely, its indignant bluntness about religion. It was a best-seller; does that mean he ‘faked’ his outrage?”

There’s no denying that Dawkins played a formative role in the atheist movement, but it’s grown beyond just him. Remarks like these make him a liability at best, a punchline at worst. He may have convinced himself that he’s the Most Rational Man Alive, but if his goal is to persuade everyone else that atheism is a welcoming and attractive option, Richard Dawkins is doing a terrible job. Blogger and author Greta Christina told me, “I can’t tell you how many women, people of color, other marginalized people I’ve talked with who’ve told me, ‘I’m an atheist, but I don’t want anything to do with organized atheism if these guys are the leaders.’”

It’s not just women who are outraged by Dawkins these days: author and blogger PZ Myers told me, “At a time when our movement needs to expand its reach, it’s a tragedy that our most eminent spokesman has so enthusiastically expressed such a regressive attitude.”

What’s so frustrating, from the standpoint of the large and growing non-religious demographic, is that Dawkins is failing badly to live up to his own standards. As both an atheist and a scientist, he should be the first to defend the principle that no one is above criticism, and that any idea can be challenged, especially an idea in accord with popular prejudices. Instead, with no discernible sense of irony, Dawkins is publicly recycling the bad arguments so often used against him as an atheist: accusing his critics of being “outrage junkies” who are only picking fights for the sake of notoriety; roaring about “thought police” as though it were a bad thing to argue that someone is mistaken and attempt to change their mind; scoffing that they’re “looking for excuses to be angry” as though the tone of the argument, rather than its factual merits, were the most important thing; encouraging those who are targets of criticism to ignore it rather than respond.

The artist Amy Roth, who recently debuted an exhibit in which she literally wallpapered a room with the misogynist messages that she and other feminists have received, finds the systemic sexism incredibly frustrating. As she told me this week:

Quote:
The men and women in this community have a right to speak up about it, and if the best argument you have against us is that we are the ‘thought police’ or we are writing for ‘clickbait’ or that the weight of our words is equivalent to an actual ‘witch hunt’, then perhaps it’s time to retire to your study and calmly reevaluate the actual topics at hand.
Quote:


On other occasions, Dawkins himself has emphasized the importance of awakening people to injustice and mistreatment they may have overlooked. But when it comes to feminism, he’s steadfastly refused to let his own consciousness be raised. Instead, he clings to his insular and privileged viewpoint – and, worse, he’s creating the impression that “true” atheists all share his retrograde attitudes.

Like many scientists who accomplished great things earlier in their careers, Richard Dawkins has succumbed to the delusion that he’s infallible on any topic he chooses to address, and in so doing, has wandered off the edge and plummeted into belligerent crankery.

Whatever he may say, it’s up to the wider atheist community to make it clear that this one public intellectual doesn’t speak for all of us. If the atheist movement is going to thrive and make a difference in our society, it needs to grow beyond its largely older, largely male, largely white roots. Dawkins’s very public hostility toward the people who emphasize the importance of diversity, who want to make the community broader and more welcoming, and who oppose sexual harassment and sexist language, is harming the cause he himself claims to care about.

In the long run, however, the reputation Dawkins will damage the most is his own.

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 02:44 pm
I don't read Dawkins anyway. I did see that the airman denied re-enlistment over not saying a pledge to god, has been allowed to serve after all, without giving in.
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 02:50 pm
If one needs Dawkins or Sam Harris to inform your opinions, i'd wonder if one is an atheist by conviction, or "me-too-ism." I came to my conclusion that i did not believe there was a god without mentoring, and without anyone informing me of a correct way to view such questions.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 02:51 pm
I am also never surprised to see sexism among prominent male authority figures, atheist or otherwise. Women have been such convenient punching bags for thousands of years--i don't see that changing any time soon.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:00 pm
I see a real need for opposition to theism. Like many of you, I get tired of hearing presidents and lesser politicians ending speeches with “and may GOD bless the United States of America.” I am tired of “one nation under GOD” and of “in GOD we trust.” I do not want to hear about laws passed or opposed because of what is written in “the Good Book.”

But the movement toward that opposition will never have “atheism” as its centerpiece. Not only does “atheism” treat women disrespectfully…atheism treats other non-theistic stances that same way.

I think non-theism could prevail if we could get past that "atheism" label, although I dread what may happen as the theists see their dominance waning. I suspect we might see militancy from Christians under those circumstances that might rival the militancy we presently have coming from Islam.

But change in this area is needed…and I dare to assume it will be to the advantage of humankind in general if that change comes.

Uncanny
 
  -1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:06 pm
@littlek,
Athiest are mean! God made everything! Praise Jesus! #bigbanghoax #godisscience #creationist #yolo
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:07 pm
@Olivier5,
I find it interesting, but sadly not surprising, that you condemn Dawkins based on what amounts to gossip. Reading the Twitter-tempest on his page in context, you will see what the latest brouhaha appears to be* really about:

  • A woman charged a man with rape.
  • At trial, she testified she was too drunk to remember whether she consented to sex.
  • There was no other evidence.
  • The jury came out in favor of the defendant because the plaintiff had failed to establish her charge beyond a reasonable doubt.
  • Given these facts (or assuming them --- it's not quite clear*), Dawkins approves of the jury. His detractors disapprove of his approval.

How does this say that "Richard Dawkins haslost it"? How does this stance of his give atheists a bad name?
___
* "appears to be" and "it's not quite clear", because there is no link to the actual trial. But the facts don't seem to be in dispute between Dawkins and his detractors.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:07 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I don't read Dawkins anyway.

Me neither, and I often disagree with his ideas, when I see them quoted.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Not only does “atheism” treat women disrespectfully…atheism treats other non-theistic stances that same way.

Woh woh woh... wait. Atheism is not inherently sexist. And I don't even understand why it would be demographically male-dominated--though I understand that may be the case.

However, I agree that the tendency among some Atheists such as Dawkins to aggress religious people and treat them as stupid is profoundly off-putting, and just as parochial as any religion.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:26 pm
@Thomas,
Well, maybe I am a bit fast to agree with these guys who accuse him, but he has a history of belittling feminism...

I just read his tweet: "Exactly. If you want to drive, don't get drunk. If you want to be in a position to testify & jail a man, don't get drunk." and thought: "What a ridiculous thing to say. One never knows in advance that a situation will arise that will require one to go to court..."
Thomas
 
  2  
Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Well, maybe I am a bit fast to agree with these guys who accuse him, but he has a history of belittling feminism...

He has a history of belittling some feminists, just as he has a history of praising the feminist movement as a whole for its successes at raising conciousness to all kinds of lazy thinking. I say good for him on both counts! Feminism has done tons of good in my lifetime. But it also does have a fringe of anti-rational idiots that deserve to be belittled.

Olivier5 wrote:
I just read his tweet: "Exactly. If you want to drive, don't get drunk. If you want to be in a position to testify & jail a man, don't get drunk." and thought: "What a ridiculous thing to say. One never knows in advance that a situation will arise that will require one to go to court..."

That wasn't his point, though. His point was: if you were too drunk to witness whether a crime was committed or not, don't complain when your testimony doesn't convince a jury. The rule of law rightly forbids that we jail people on a drunk witness's hunch.
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 02:18 am
"Atheism" is only an "-ism" as employed by people like Dawkins. Whether or not he is anti-feminist is a matter of indifference to me. I respect or dismiss persons based on their remarks. If i don't know much about someone, i'll dismiss their remarks. If they have a history of arrogance or idiocy (not always different things), i will dismiss the person. It never has anything to do with the fact that i don't believe there is any god anywhere. It is ludicrous to assert that "atheism" does or doesn't do something.
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 02:32 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
It is ludicrous to assert that "atheism" does or doesn't do something.

Aleprechaunism on the other hand . . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 02:39 am
. . . gives me a headache . . .
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 02:58 am
http://i61.tinypic.com/5mjz9f.jpg
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 08:15 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
He has a history of belittling some feminists, just as he has a history of praising the feminist movement as a whole for its successes at raising conciousness to all kinds of lazy thinking. I say good for him on both counts! Feminism has done tons of good in my lifetime. But it also does have a fringe of anti-rational idiots that deserve to be belittled.

Ok, I stand corrected.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 08:19 am
Who said that atheism "does or doesn't do something"?

However, the most vocal, organized and active atheists seem to be male more often than not. I just wonder why.
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:32 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
However, the most vocal, organized and active atheists seem to be male more often than not. I just wonder why.

I agree with the observation. And yes, it's interesting to wonder why it's more males than females. Not that there's something wrong with that.
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:35 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Who said that atheism "does or doesn't do something"?


Frank Apisa wrote:
Not only does “atheism” treat women disrespectfully…atheism treats other non-theistic stances that same way.
 

Related Topics

The tolerant atheist - Discussion by Tuna
Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
church of atheism - Discussion by daredevil
Can An Atheist Have A Soul? - Discussion by spiritual anrkst
THE MAGIC BUS COMES TO CANADA - Discussion by Setanta
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Atheism
  3. » Page 550
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 04/19/2024 at 05:15:36