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Please School Me On Batteries For Mobility Scooters

 
 
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:18 pm
I'm trying to find affordable replacement batteries for BBB's mobility scooter. It is from Pride Mobility and is their Go-Go Model SC 40. The Pride Mobility website does not give any info on replacement battery specs. Here's a link to a description/specs for the scooter from another website:

http://www.scooterville.com/pride-elite-wheel-travel-scooter-sc40e-p-528.html

http://www.scooterville.com/images/GoGoElite3WhlRed300x330.jpg

The specifications in the manual she has for her scooter says:

Quote:
Battery Requirements: Type: Two (2) 12 volt, deep cycle. SLA or gel cell
Size: 12 AH


There are no dimension measurements. BBB says they cost about $200 each and two are needed.

I have a few questions:

1. What does the AH mean?
2. As long as the voltage number is right, is the AH number important to match up?
3. SLA = sealed lead acid?
4. What's the performance difference between a gel battery and a SLA battery and is there a cost difference?
5. Deep cycle? Is there a standard cycle?


I found on Amazon.com these batteries at 1/4th the price and am wondering why they are so much less expensive.

http://www.amazon.com/Volt-Battery-Electric-Mobility-Scooter/dp/B000RZNBSQ/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/211i39LhQJL._SL500_AA200_.jpg

Quote:
Designed to fit most electric mobility scooters and power chairs 12 Volt Electric Mobility Scooter BatterySpecifications: Dimensions: 5.94L x 3.86W x 3.94H 12 Volt Seal Lead Acid Battery .187 Spade Protected Terminals Battery should be charged overnight before first use Weight: 9 lbs Warranty Info: 1 year warranty against manufacturers defects


The description doesn't say anything about it being a 12 AH nor does it say if it is a deep cycle battery. Is this still compatible to the scooter specifications?

I also found this one which says it is a 12 volt 33AH battery. Is it compatible to the scooter's manual specs? It says it is a deep cycle battery while the first one does not; yet they are still considerably less than the $200 price BBB was estimating.

http://www.amazon.com/Powerstar-Group-Cycle-Sealed-Battery/dp/B0006VCCMW/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410VnlUR77L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Quote:
12V 33ah - Powerstar SLA Battery, U1, perfect for deep cycle wheelchair and scooter applications. L 7.7 x w = 5.1 x h = 6.3 inches. Weight 24lbs. Used in Fire Alarms Security Systems/Alarms, UPS Battery BackUp , Exit Signs/Emergency Lighting, Testing Equipment , Electric Scooters , Mobility Wheelchairs, Electric Gates , Under Water ScoPowersonic PS-12300 Powersonic PS-12330 Panasonic (Matsushita) LCL12V33P Panasonic (Matsushita) LC-LA1233P Sonnenschien A512/30.0G6 CSB/Prism EVX-12340 Johnson Controls U1-31 Johnson Controls UPS31 Volcano KB12310 Yuasa NP30-12 Yuasa NP-12300 Yuasa NP-12330 12 volt 30 Ah 12 volt 31 Ah 12 volt 32 Ah 12 volt 33 Ah 12 volt 34 Ah 12 volt 35 Ah 12 volt 36 Ah


I found another website with the same scooter for sale and it lists two models of battery replacement packs for a considerably higher price and it offers a 12 AH and a 17 AH version. So, does this mean the 33 AH version I found on Amazon would also work?

http://www.phc-online.com/Pride_Go_Go_Scooter_p/pride_sc40e.htm



Additional 12AH Battery Pack [Add $354.00]

Additional 17AH Battery Pack [Add $403.00]
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:41 pm
@Butrflynet,
Im no sure about the AH symbol so Im in the dark as well. Id like to use this opportunity to see whether any new information about the Zinc /Air batteries is available. These batteries are, to date, the most energy dense and theyve been used mostly for teeny appliances like hearing aids. However, I think USC elec engineering school had built a series of Zn/air batteries to power as city bus.

NiCd, NimH, and Fuel cells tech also seems to have been lagging . Maybe the ferriners have done more work on this, as it seems our science and tech base is still reeling from the previous 8 years.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 07:48 pm
@farmerman,
I think I found a little bit of information here, but it is too technical for me to clearly understand. Need someone to 'splain it to me in non-tech lingo. Scroll down to the section on battery capacity and discharging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28electricity%29

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 07:59 pm
@Butrflynet,
my guess is AH signifies post type and position.

not a scooter guy, but have done lotsa different batteries over the years.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:12 pm
@Rockhead,
This is what the Wikipedia article says about AH. This is part of what is too technical for me to clearly understand:

Quote:
The more electrolyte and electrode material there is in the cell, the greater the capacity of the cell. Thus a small cell has less capacity than a larger cell, given the same chemistry (e.g. alkaline cells), though they develop the same open-circuit voltage.[46]

Because of the chemical reactions within the cells, the capacity of a battery depends on the discharge conditions such as the magnitude of the current, the duration of the current, the allowable terminal voltage of the battery, temperature and other factors.[46] The available capacity of a battery depends upon the rate at which it is discharged.[47] If a battery is discharged at a relatively high rate, the available capacity will be lower than expected.

The battery capacity that battery manufacturers print on a battery is the product of 20 hours multiplied by the maximum constant current that a new battery can supply for 20 hours at 68 F° (20 C°), down to a predetermined terminal voltage per cell. A battery rated at 100 A·h will deliver 5 A over a 20 hour period at room temperature. However, if it is instead discharged at 50 A, it will run out of charge before the 2 hours as theoretically expected.[48]
The symbol for a battery in a circuit diagram.

For this reason, a battery capacity rating is always related to an expected discharge duration.

t = \frac Q I[49]

where

Q is the battery capacity (typically given in mA·h or A·h).
I is the current drawn from battery (mA or A).
t is the amount of time (in hours) that a battery can sustain.

The relationship between current, discharge time, and capacity for a lead acid battery is expressed by Peukert's law. Theoretically, a battery should provide the same amount of energy regardless of the discharge rate, but in real batteries, internal energy losses cause the efficiency of a battery to vary at different discharge rates. When discharging at low rate, the battery's energy is delivered more efficiently than at higher discharge rates.[48]

In general, the higher the ampere-hour rating, the longer the battery will last for a certain load. Installing batteries with different A·h ratings will not affect the operation of a device rated for a specific voltage unless the load limits of the battery are exceeded. Theoretically, a battery would operate at its A·h rating, but realistically, high-drain loads like digital cameras can result in lower actual energy, most notably for alkaline batteries.[31] For example, a battery rated at 2000 mA·h may not sustain a current of 1 A for the full two hours.


The part in red helps. It seems to be telling me that the higher the AH number, the greater the quantity of "charge duration" depending on how strong the drain on power is.

So, I'm still not clear on what makes such a dramatic price difference between the $300 price for replacement batteries at a scooter store and the $40 - $60 price (times 2) on the Amazon website. From the information given, it appears that all things are equal.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:16 pm
@Butrflynet,
Do you have a battery store in ABQ?

I deal with a local joint that can make or overnight anything, and they are very competitive.

I buy my car battries there, and have had them build a couple specialty jobs.

Mine calls itself battery mart or something, but they just recently broke away from the national chain "interstate"...

I know there are places like it in So-Cal.



(your scooter is going to have a heavy draw)
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:18 pm
@Butrflynet,
scooter store prolly has a 200% mark-up or more, just guessing from similar experience.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:33 pm
@Butrflynet,
AH would be amphours. The higher the AH the longer the battery will last.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 11:52 am
@parados,
So, am I right in thinking that as long as it is a 12 volt battery with the same dimensions and terminal placement, the scooter can use any AH?

Also, can you explain the differences between the SLA battery and a gel battery? Can you also explain what differs from a standard battery and a deep cycle battery?

Which would be the better buy for a scooter, the SLA or gel battery, a standard battery or a deep cycle battery?
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 11:59 am
@Butrflynet,
deep cycle battery (from wiki)

A deep-cycle lead-acid battery is designed to deliver a consistent voltage as the battery discharges. In contrast, starter batteries (e.g. most automotive batteries) are designed to deliver sporadic current spikes. Battery-driven vehicles, such as golf carts, forklifts and floor sweepers commonly use deep-cycle batteries. While a deep-cycle battery can be used as a starting battery (and may work better than a traditional starting battery with the myriad of electronic components attached to most modern vehicles), the lower "cranking amps" imply that an over-sized battery may need to be used in an older vehicle that lacks fuel injection. Deep cycle batteries can be charged with a lower current than regular batteries.

The key structural difference between deep cycle batteries and cranking batteries are the lead plates, which are solid in deep-cycle batteries and composed of porous sponge-like plates in starting batteries. Some batteries that are labelled "deep-cycle" do not possess these solid lead plates, however, and are actually "hybrid" batteries. While a deep-cycle battery is designed to discharge down to as much as 20% of its charge capacity over several cycles, companies recommend that a hybrid battery not be discharged beyond 50% of its capacity. [1].



deep cycle batteries are used in boats and RV's but not good for cars.

Gel batteries are good because they don't leak. (can be used upside down for instance)

all my knowledge comes from far enough away that I can't help much further with your scooter dilemma.

good luck...
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:13 pm
@Butrflynet,
The only part of that I feel competent to answer is the deep cycle battery part. You must have it. The standard lead acid battery (which might be what SLA stands for) will have an extremely short life if it is routinely completely discharged. I understand from an RV topic by fishin99 that the deep cycle is best if you only use the first 20% of the charge.

Amp hour capacity, by the way, doesn't give much clue about how long it is going to last. It tells you how much you are going to get from a single charge. The ones with a high amp hour rating might not last as long, as the plates are closer together, and are in danger of shorting out when sediment builds up at the bottom of the cell. High amp hour capacity is important for vehicles in very cold weather.

I have a couple of suggestions, though. Start the order process on Amazon, and find out who is actually selling it, as it's probably not something Amazon sells directly. Abort the order process, get on the phone, and talk to the seller or manufacturer. Second suggestion is to try to contact fishin99 by PM, or through some of the Boston crowd. He knows about stuff like this. Oh, and check the physical measurements of your present battery, and compare to what you are thinking of buying.

By the way, Amazon can really be that much lower than brick & morter stores, unless the mfg requires a minimum selling price. The shipping costs are worth checking. Lead acid batteries are not light.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:15 pm
@Rockhead,
Ya beat me, Rockhead. Good to see I wasn't completely off base. I stand corrected on the percent of discharge. I had reversed the 20%/80%.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:21 pm
@roger,
your shipping comment is right on.

I buy batteries local for a reason. (and batteries have climbed about 20% since the fuel shot up last year...)

when shipping a battery it is classified hazardous material as well.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:22 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet wrote:

So, am I right in thinking that as long as it is a 12 volt battery with the same dimensions and terminal placement, the scooter can use any AH?



Well, not really, I think. It's said here (I've got these infos from a booklet of our mandatory long term care insurance) that the range of a scooter is 1/3 of the installed capacity in Ah (12ah = 4 km = 2.5 miles).

Such mobile scooters like BBB's are sold in the very basic option with two 12V/12Ah batteries, recommended is 2 x 12V-36Ah. (A 50aH costs 170 Euros = $ 240, someone from mother's senior home bought two this week.)
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 01:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Okay, so it sounds like the 12 volt 33 AH battery I posted in the original post will work as long as the dimensions match. I'll spend the day trying to remove the battery pack cover and batteries from the scooter so I can get the measurements.

After that, I'll take Rockhead's advice and see if I can find it locally at close to the same price when compared to Amazon's plus the shipping cost.

Thanks! BBB has a batch of doctor appointments coming up next week that require very long walks into hospital departments. She's also in so much pain that she's not able to move at all from her recliner other than to use the bathroom. I'm hoping that getting her scooter back in operating condition will give her a bit less pain and a lot more mobility. She was having trouble even getting up out of the recliner so I bought some 3 inch foam and fabric and made some new cushions for her recliner that are giving her a bit of relief, and make it easier to get out of the chair, but not enough to enable her to walk much.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 01:41 pm
@Butrflynet,
I recently (last week) replaced the deep cycle marine battery in my RV at the local (just down the street from us) at $120. you need to bring in the old battery(s) for trade in.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 02:18 pm
@dyslexia,
Can you give me the name of the store so I can see if they have a replacement in inventory?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 02:27 pm
@Butrflynet,
Not sure but I think it was "auto zone" near the intersection across from the intersection leading to mcdonalds . if you need directions, call me.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 02:33 pm
@Butrflynet,
interstate has a dealer in your town if autoclownzone can't help you...

http://corporate.interstatebatteries.com/www/distributors/albuquerque/default.asp
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 05:25 pm
@Butrflynet,
The prices charged by those scooter sales outfits seem high, but I think the prices quoted ($125 for 12ah and $180 for 17ah) are for an entire removable battery pack not just the batteries. If the scooter is used a lot then a spare pack may be useful since you could always have a fully charged one ready to go.

Since the manufacturer only offers 12ah and 17ah batteries, I suspect that the 33ah will be too large to fit.

If you can't find anything reasonable locally, here are a couple more online to consider.

2 12V 12ah for $50.90 shipped.
2 12V 18ah for $77.00 shipped
w much it is used
0 Replies
 
 

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