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The Baseball Thread

 
 
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 01:49 pm
@joefromchicago,
McGriff and McGwire are steroid-era tainted. Time and more investigation will sort that out.

Include Foster? He had some good stats on a great team (as did Rice). How many 300+ seasons?

Also, gambling or no gambling...it's possible Pete Rose might not be considered worthy of HOF - for being the best Singles-Hitter? Shakey reasoning at best when you consider that Pete Rose made the most outs in MLB history with 9,797.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 01:51 pm
@joefromchicago,
On the field, Ty Cobb..intentionally spiked his opponents. Regardless of the era..not "good baseball"

Put Foster in HOF..if he's still eligible. He was a better hitter than was Rose, his teammate.

There should be more to election into HOF than JUST metrics and stats. Plater's value such as the particiaption in WS, and winning in the clutch..which is what could vault Rose ahead of his being the 'best singles and doubles hitter'. Too bad that he self-imploded with betting on baseball and then lied like a rug.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 02:11 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

McGriff and McGwire are steroid-era tainted. Time and more investigation will sort that out.

I've never heard of any allegation that McGriff took steroids. Have you? Or are you saying that nobody from that era should be considered until all the facts about steroids are known?

Ragman wrote:
Include Foster? He had some good stats on a great team (as did Rice). How many 300+ seasons?

Seasons where he batted .300 or better? Four.

Ragman wrote:
Pete Rose's destruction of Ray Fosse's as catcher while diving into him at the plate in 1971 All-star game. After this fiasco, Fosse's playing ability and career spiraled downward.

No, not quite.

Wikipedia wrote:
Arguably, Ray Fosse is most famous for being bowled over by the Cincinnati Reds' Pete Rose at home plate in the last play of the 1970 All-Star Game. Rose scored the winning run, while the collision separated Fosse's right shoulder. The injury is often incorrectly cited as what caused the downfall of Fosse's career. In reality, Fosse played 42 games in the second half of 1970, and was an All-Star again in 1971....

What effectively ended Fosse's career happened in 1974, Fosse, by then an Oakland Athletic, suffered a far worse injury than a dislocated shoulder. On June 5 he suffered a crushed disk in his neck attempting to break up a clubhouse fight between teammates Reggie Jackson and Billy North. He was on the disabled list for three months.


Ragman wrote:
Also, gambling or no gambling...it's possible Pete Rose might not be considered worthy of HOF - for being the best Singles-Hitter? Shakey reasoning at best when you consider that Pete Rose made the most outs in MLB history with 9,797.

Well, that's just silly. Rose made the most outs because he played more games than any other player. Even a .303 lifetime hitter makes an out about seven out of ten at-bats. He also wasn't just a singles hitter: he is second in career doubles (after Tris Speaker). If you don't want singles hitters in the HOF, then you need to complain about Rod Carew or Tony Gwynn, not Pete Rose.
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 02:35 pm
@Ragman,
Quote:
Isn't this what a player is supposed to do -- steal when you can steal? Let's suppose, if home base was uncovered defensively, should he stand there and NOT run to steal home? I'm just sayin'.


I agree with Rockman about stealing for strategic purposes: I would say that a player should steal when he needs to steal. If you're on third and home plate becomes open on a wild pitch or something, then sure. But the steal in question was of 2nd base late in a game where his team was in no obvious danger of losing, and I'm inclined to view a steal in that situation as similar to bunting to break up a no-hitter. I'll see if I can dig up the specs on the game--as I remember, Rickey's steal sparked an angry response from the opposing coach, who had to be mildly restrained from giving Rickey a piece of his mind, so there might be a write-up of the game somewhere on the internet...
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 02:43 pm
I'm sure many of you already saw this in yesterday's New York Times, "Taking a Swing at Baseball’s Hall of Fame (and Infamy)" by Charles McGrath, a tepid review of Zef Chafets's Cooperstown Confidential: Heroes, Rogues and the Inside Story of the Baseball Hall of Fame. Some excerpts from the review:

Quote:
Equally hypocritical is Rule 5 of the hall’s election requirements, the character clause, which specifies that admission should be based not just on a player’s record and ability but also on his integrity, sportsmanship and virtue. This is the bar that has been used to exclude Pete Rose (gambling) and Mark McGwire (performance-enhancing drugs), along with troublesome, mouthy characters like Dave Parker and Dick Allen, and that may eventually be used to banish Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez and anyone else tainted by accusations of steroid use.

But the brand of moralizing practiced by the Hall of Fame has always been highly selective and inconsistent. At the time of the annual induction ceremony in 2007, Mr. Chafets writes, the hall included “a convicted drug dealer, a reformed cokehead who narrowly beat a lifetime suspension from baseball, a celebrated sex addict, an Elders of Zion conspiracy nut, a pitcher who wrote a book about how he cheated his way into the hall, a well-known and highly arrested drunk driver and a couple of nasty beanball artists.”

That’s just among the living members. The roster of deceased immortals (some inducted before the character clause went into effect) includes Ty Cobb, one of the very first members, famously a sociopath, possibly a murderer and a notorious racist who was also a card-carrying, torch-waving member of the Klu Klux Klan, as were Tris Speaker and Rogers Hornsby. The hall is full of gamblers, brawlers and defendants in paternity suits, and there are numerous drunks, starting with Grover Cleveland Alexander, who Bill Veeck, the colorful baseball executive, once said pitched better drunk than sober.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 06:36 pm
@joefromchicago,
Yes, I grouped McGriff in there NOT neccesarily due to his close association with McGwire, but due to him hitting a plethora of HR at the peak of the steroid-tainted era. Was it just a coincidence that he was a team-mate of McGwired? Time will tell. Let's see some hard evidence and decent investigation first before one of these gets admitted to HOF.

I'm saying if you hypothetically removed Rose from taint of gambling or pardoned him, he still has a ways to go as regards his comparison to others in HOF:

"Pete Rose made the most outs in MLB history with 9,797. A distant runner up was Hank Aaron with 8,593. (Hank had a higher lifetime batting average and QUITE a few more homers Smile

Here's what some people miss: Rose had 67 more hits than Ty Cobb so he {Rose} must be better right? Not! Rose also made 2,552 more outs. At Cobb's lifetime batting average pace, he needed only 183 more at bats to equal Rose's 4,256 hits. That means that Ty could have afforded to go 0 for 4 plus seasons! (Ty also had a few more stolen bases, but that's another story Smile

How about comparing him to Tris Speaker? Tris was 742 hits short, but had a .344 lifetime avg (Rose .302). So, he would have needed to bat .192 for seven seasons to break Rose's record. A done deal! And, he had more than twice as many stolen bases.

Now, let's take someone less threatening; Paul Molitor. Paul had a higher lifetime average (.306) but finished 937 hits short of Rose's record. It's not cut and dry, Molitor would have had to stick it out for another 3,218 AB (6 seasons) and maintain a .291 average to equal his feat. A tall order. Does this mean that Rose better than Molitor? They are legitimately comparable. Molitor had more than twice as many stolen bases and more power too. "

Where all these stats break down is how many WS appearances that Rose was in and what he contributed to his team's success getting to and what he did with WS-level of competition. Rose batted over .300 in 15 regular seasons of games. He played in 6 World Series.

However, there's a good argument to be made he was wasn't in top 3 of his own team mates as Foster and Bench had far better numbers than Rose.
comparison of stats of Rose to his Big Red Machine famous teammates:
http://baseballguru.com/bbspot2.html

So for Rose (even after possible pardoning), is NOT a shoe-in for HOF..unless you get Foster and a slew of others in HOF ahead of Rose.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 06:56 pm
@joefromchicago,
Not to put too fine a point on this, but the rule you quoted still doesn't exclude those who attempt the "Henderson crouch". The rules do not state the zone is measured when the batter's standing upright. So, ergo, if the batter crouches, it's to his advantage.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:33 am
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
So for Rose (even after possible pardoning), is NOT a shoe-in for HOF..unless you get Foster and a slew of others in HOF ahead of Rose.

Now I think you're just putting us on. Surely no one could seriously believe that, if Rose had not been implicated in his gambling scandals, he wouldn't have been elected on the first ballot by an almost unanimous vote.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:34 am
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Not to put too fine a point on this, but the rule you quoted still doesn't exclude those who attempt the "Henderson crouch".

Not to put too fine a point on this, but I never said that it did.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 11:52 am

Shocked

big papi in agua caliente
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335


guess i shouldn't be surprised.
now clean, he's a shell of his former juiced-up self...
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:01 pm
@Region Philbis,
Same story here: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/07/report_ortiz_ra.html

The Puppies are very disappointed and saddened.
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:02 pm
@Region Philbis,
You're right, I guess we shouldn't be shocked.
But I am. I honestly am.
Damn.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:10 pm

it seemed like he was the exception to the rule.
playoff hero... favorite player to many... baseball ambassador...

man, he pulled the wool over the collective eye of red sawx nation but good...
jespah
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:12 pm
@Region Philbis,
I feel like a family member has been lying to me.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:13 pm
@Region Philbis,
Who says he's clean now? Why would he stop juicing? Since the all-star break he's hitting again and hitting for power. He's hitting with power at about .285 since the break, I think I saw.

These guys don't care. smart ones could take masking drugs as their chem labs are ahead of the curve. Ask Lance Armstrong for his chem lab.

I'm so bummed. That puts a smudge all over the awesome WS victories that we waited 86 yrs for.

OK...now will they clean up the sport?
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:16 pm
@jespah,
yes..and the family member is a bank robber.

Who is leaking the list of these 100 users? The list and users were supposed to be anonymous and destroyed.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:17 pm
@Ragman,
Quote:
Who says he's clean now?
his stats do not lie...
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:19 pm
@Region Philbis,
avg and power stats turned around since the all star break

Listening to Ortiz's speach of Feb 09... "Test everyone 3 - 4 times per year,,,and if tested positive ban them for the year."

So Ortiz should sit himself down. Let's hear him make a speech now!

I feel like I've been punched in the gut.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:21 pm
@Region Philbis,
Quote:
now clean, he's a shell of his former juiced-up self...


I noticed that in the AL playoffs
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:24 pm
@panzade,

panz, i heard garza went yankee head-hunting last night...




good on him!

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
 

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