Guns: how much longer will it take ....

You don't see a problem with him buying a gun?

Granted my brother isn't a lunatic...

well I guess time will only tell, but I find it ridiculous he was able to buy a gun.

No questions at all.

In a foreign country.

I'm not American, but I wouldn't want anybody, from far or away,
to have that kind of accessibility.

This is exactly why Cho could by an arsenal.
There are no checks and balances.

I'm confused?

How do you decide to deny man his liberty pre-massacre
but show no impulse to deny his access to a gun?

On one hand you say everyone should be armed, have access to weapons,

but on the other you say nutcases should be locked up.

I think you're missing a step. The nutcases only seem to reveal themselves
after they've bought the gun, not before,

or in the rare case they when they have shown their nuttiness before they cut up a place of work...
They are defended to the high hilt to be allowed the right to buy
with out being fettered? Which is it?

If I'm forced to live in a world with your preferred toys,
but I can't ask for a waiting period, a piece of id, a registry?

We don't put guns or bullets in the hand of the insane,
but gun owners don't monitor or care who has access until after a deadly event.

The NRA is the biggest lobbiest group in the United States.

They don't give a shit about the victim with a bullet in his head,
they care about the idiot standing over the blood fountain with the smoking gun.

I'm sorry I don't ever wish to carry a pound of death by my side.

Don't blame me when one of your brethren goes postal.
I wish you would all finish each other off, leave the rest of us in peace.

Freedom. It's a funny word.
Means different things to different people, in different places.

The freest country I've ever been in was India, but I digress.

Americans register dogs, cars, children, marriage, births, deaths...
How does registering your gun differ from any of the above,
and how does it affect your freedom?

I'm glad the lady now protitutes her self for your cause.. great,
but maybe if she'd had a better lock or door, maybe a security system,
nobody would have gotten shot, dead or hurt.

I can't be bothered to go over the minutiae in all my posts.

It bores me, however dissect the post if you must.
It won't change my mind.
I don't like guns - that ain't gunna change.

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=1208 As the blood flow is diverted, the hands can become numb and with the added adrenaline that is now being pumped throughout the body, fine and complex motor skills are lost. Simple actions such as reloading a firearm or the handling of an impact weapon become difficult. The term tunnel vision is also a side effect from the diversion of blood. Peripheral vision and auditory senses can be reduced or completely lost. Often when people are questioned after a deadly situation, they cannot describe anything other than the threat directly in front of them and cannot remember any dialog. Other effects that maybe encountered are: loss of near vision, loss of night vision, loss of depth perception, inability to focus, inability to process information, loss of memory and the inability to make rational decisions.

I have no idea how you guys do all that funky, quote, in quote, in quote stuff, so bear with me. . . . .

Americans register dogs, cars, children, marriage, births, deaths...
How does registering your gun differ from any of the above,
and how does it affect your freedom?

None of those are enshrined in the Supreme Law of the Land,
as IS the right to keep and bear arms.

For the love of pete... Are you serious.

Maybe that is the problem,
the Supreme Law of the Land, whatever that is...

I feel like I should say that in a really loud voice, like James Earl Jones. I digress.
The Supreme Law of the Land does not enshrine birth or death. Huh?

I'm not sure whether to be frightened or relieved.
Marriage I will get to...

Life is the issue. Guns have a terrible tendency to end it.

I'm sorry I used the word prostitute. But.. I kinda feel that way about violence.

Just because you become a believer doesn't make it right.

If they'd installed better doors, windows an alarm system,
maybe even a cheap motion sensor light, she might never have had to change her heart.

You advocate being prepared, but aside from a gun,
what other options do you suggest.

I gave you these examples earlier,
and even though you stripped my whole post apart,
you managed to ignore this point.

On other posts, I've told you before that I no matter how prepared you are,
the element of surprise can overtake even the most seasoned veteran.
It sadly happens all too frequently.

We hear of police officer killed in the line of duty, these are well
trained individuals. They are armed, they have all the tools and
yet it happens. Why?

Because they've become too reliant on the gun.

They think like you do David. That a gun will save you in every
aggressive situation. It won't.

A gun is a tool. But the best thing a person can do in any situation is run,
duck, get out of the way, hide, call for help.

You want enough space between you and the assailant.
Maybe then you can think.

This is an excerpt on the Fight or Flight syndrome.

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=1208 As the blood flow is diverted, the hands can become numb and with the added adrenaline that is now being pumped throughout the body, fine and complex motor skills are lost. Simple actions such as reloading a firearm or the handling of an impact weapon become difficult. The term tunnel vision is also a side effect from the diversion of blood. Peripheral vision and auditory senses can be reduced or completely lost. Often when people are questioned after a deadly situation, they cannot describe anything other than the threat directly in front of them and cannot remember any dialog. Other effects that maybe encountered are: loss of near vision, loss of night vision, loss of depth perception, inability to focus, inability to process information, loss of memory and the inability to make rational decisions.

You can see why I don't trust most people participating in a shootout.

Freedom. It's a funny word. Means different things to different people, in different places. The freest country I've ever been in was India, but I digress.

How does registering your gun differ from any of the above, and how does it affect your freedom?

but maybe if she'd had a better lock or door, maybe a security system, nobody would have gotten shot, dead or hurt.

I can't be bothered to go over the minutiae in all my posts. It bores me, however dissect the post if you must. It won't change my mind.
I don't like guns - that ain't gunna change.

Actually America is the only free country on the planet

Ceili wrote:

Freedom. It's a funny word. Means different things to different people, in different places. The freest country I've ever been in was India, but I digress.

Actually America is the only free country on the planet. Other countries either never had the right to have guns, or they repealed the right.

This is a case of American arrogance, I'm going to hazzard a guess and guess you don't travel much

Ceili wrote:

How does registering your gun differ from any of the above, and how does it affect your freedom?

Gun registration is used as a tool to violate our right to have guns.

When the government decides to go violate people's right to have guns, they use registration lists to find gun owners.


Yup, the government can find you. Hurray. I guess you're not so free after all.

Ceili wrote:

but maybe if she'd had a better lock or door, maybe a security system, nobody would have gotten shot, dead or hurt.

How exactly would that have prevented her from being attacked in a public place?


In the example given by David, the victim and her family were attcked while their were sleeping in their beds, I wouldn't imagine this was a public place.

Ceili wrote:

I can't be bothered to go over the minutiae in all my posts. It bores me, however dissect the post if you must. It won't change my mind.
I don't like guns - that ain't gunna change.

So there is no point in showing that you are factually incorrect?

Actually America is the only free country on the planet.

Ceili wrote:

Quote:

Americans register dogs, cars, children, marriage, births, deaths...
How does registering your gun differ from any of the above,
and how does it affect your freedom?

David wrote:

Quote:

None of those are enshrined in the Supreme Law of the Land,
as IS the right to keep and bear arms.

Didn't answer the question, doesn't explain how your freedom is affected. I think everybody in the world realize that it is enshrine in your constitution.
Ceili wrote:

Quote:

For the love of pete... Are you serious.

I am serious, regardless of Pete 's emotions.

Quote:

Life is the issue. Guns have a terrible tendency to end it.

It is not "terrible" when the life ended is that of the aggressor, who is ended by his victim,
altho different victims can be affected differently.
It is a matter of their personal psychology.
So at a moments notice, you become judge and jury. You can take the life of another, regardless of whether or not your perception could be wrong. Lets face it, most people are killed by friends or family. Maybe then you can judge the offender. I don't ever want that power, and since I don't know anybody who has every been attacked or shot at by a stranger... I'm not sure I want to spend my life, before or after, thinking about a life I've taken. Sorry, about the opinion, but I'm entitled. Just as you are.




Ceili wrote:

Quote:

I'm sorry I used the word prostitute. But.. I kinda feel that way about violence.

I don 't mean to be glib nor flippant, but that is how Susan Gonzalez also felt
until the bad guys shot her twice and she needed to scramble,
to LUNGE for the FOUNTAIN OF LIFE: her husband's .22 caliber revolver.
She changed her mind after that moment.
If u are ever in the same situation,
will YOU change your mind or not? I wonder. . . I wonder.
We all wonder. Will we be the champ or the chump. Don't know. By the way I can shoot a gun, I have extremely good accuracy

Quote:

Just because you become a believer doesn't make it right.

How is that relevant to her right to bear arms ?
I dunno, you're the one who keeps bringing it up, I don't think answering violence with violence is always the best choice. She changed her mind and know preaches violence. She not advocating baking cakes is she. She goes on speaking tours telling people to use guns, good for her, I'm not interested.

Quote:

If they'd installed better doors, windows an alarm system,
maybe even a cheap motion sensor light, she might never have had to change her heart.

How is this speculation significant? I don 't get the point.
She was attacked in her bedroom Perhaps if she'd been smarter about personal security, this shooting would never have happened in the first place. But as I've said this several times before and you've ignored it, I'm led to believe that this is not a consideration in your life. The gun will solve all problems.




Ceili wrote:

Quote:

You advocate being prepared, but aside from a gun,
what other options do you suggest.

As I said, dangerous predators shoud be prevented from having access to the decent people.
Using what methods aside from a gun? Any, any idea aside from fire power?


Ceili wrote:

Quote:

I gave you these examples earlier,
and even though you stripped my whole post apart,
you managed to ignore this point.

In addition to what I have already posted, I also wish to repeal all anti-drug laws.
What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Ceili wrote:

Quote:

On other posts, I've told you before that I no matter how prepared you are,
the element of surprise can overtake even the most seasoned veteran.
It sadly happens all too frequently.

This is true. We can only do our best.
Thay caught us off guard on Pearl Harbor Day and on 9/11.
Evade much, this is a real issue. Pearl Harbour???

Ceili wrote:

Quote:

We hear of police officer killed in the line of duty, these are well
trained individuals. They are armed, they have all the tools and
yet it happens. Why?

Sometimes it has just been bad luck.
Sometimes thay have been asleep on guard duty and taken out while sleeping.
Many jobs are not 100% safe, e.g. a cab driver.

Stick to the issue. I can list a hundred jobs more dangerous than a cop but ice road truckers don't use guns in day to day business, crab men don't use guns either. So, back to the police, they die on duty all too often. Asleep on the job? That's an ignorant position, it demeans what they do. Your interested in Psychology, why do fully trained officers outfitted with armour and guns, die all too frequently in the US? Is the opposition smarter, better prepared, do they have bigger or better guns, maybe, in some cases most probably. But, not always. So why? Because they become cocky? or lazy?
Ceili wrote:

Quote:

Because they've become too reliant on the gun.

How do u know that thay did not agree with YOU ??
Some of them do.
Yup.
Ceili wrote:

Quote:

They think like you do David. That a gun will save you in every
aggressive situation. It won't.

U have evidence that thay think this ??
You're right, I no more want you putting words in my mouth than you would want it. Suffice to say, unless you've got super human abilities, nothing will save you every time. There is always a percentage of failure. [color]







Ceili wrote:
[quote]A gun is a tool. But the best thing a person can do in any situation is run,
duck, get out of the way, hide, call for help.

You want enough space between you and the assailant.
Maybe then you can think.

This is an excerpt on the Fight or Flight syndrome.

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=1208 As the blood flow is diverted, the hands can become numb and with the added adrenaline that is now being pumped throughout the body, fine and complex motor skills are lost. Simple actions such as reloading a firearm or the handling of an impact weapon become difficult. The term tunnel vision is also a side effect from the diversion of blood. Peripheral vision and auditory senses can be reduced or completely lost. Often when people are questioned after a deadly situation, they cannot describe anything other than the threat directly in front of them and cannot remember any dialog. Other effects that maybe encountered are: loss of near vision, loss of night vision, loss of depth perception, inability to focus, inability to process information, loss of memory and the inability to make rational decisions.

You can see why I don't trust most people participating in a shootout.

Not sure who Kitty is, what ever happen to I guessing wasn't pleasant.

The case of Kitty Genovese is the most famous example of the so-called bystander effect. It is also the case that originally stimulated social psychological research in this area. Ms. Genovese was stabbed to death in 1964 by a serial rapist and murderer. According to newspaper accounts, the killing took place for at least a half an hour. The murderer attacked Ms. Genovese and stabbed her, but then fled the scene after attracting the attention of a neighbor. The killer then returned ten minutes later and finished the assault. Newspaper reports after Genovese's death claimed that 38 witnesses watched the stabbings and failed to intervene or even contact the police. This led to widespread public attention, and many editorials.

According to an article published in American Psychologist in 2007, the original story of Kitty Genovese's murder was exaggerated by the media. Specifically, there were not 38 eyewitnesses, the police were contacted at least once during the attack, and many of the bystanders that overheard the attack could not actually see the event. The authors of the article suggest that the story continues to be misrepresented in social psychology textbooks because it functions as a parable and serves as a dramatic example for students.[2]

The infamous what if somebody had done something case....