Would it have been possible for Jesus to have sinned?

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It is the fulfillment that is the change. It is not the old laws that He speaks of when He says "not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

C'mon, Intrepid....you can do better than that!

Of course it is "the law" that he is speaking of.

The ONLY reason you folks are arguing that things changed after Jesus came...is because you recognize that the god Jesus worshiped...was a disgusting, violent, vengeful, tyrannical, barbaric, murderous, petty comic book god.

But that IS the god Jesus worshiped.

Worship the god if you are too afraid to simply laugh at it...but really...you shouldn't torture logic or the language to try to make it seem reasonable.

It's not.

Anyway...if the god had been a kind, loving, god...you people would not be making these absurd claims that somehow Jesus terminated the law. You would be embracing it with open arms.

Tough problem you've got there.

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What do you think that He means in Matthew when he says, "until it all comes true." Do you think he means the old law? That would not be logical.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

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The fact is that Jesus is not God.

So you are absolutely certain that there is a "GOD"...and that Jesus is not that "GOD"...are you???

Just an educated guess, Frank. Smile

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Frank Apisa wrote:

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The entire world has been in the tank ever since it was hijacked in the Garden of Eden.

You do not want to get into this, Neo!

But I've been in it all along. (John 8:44) (1John 5:19)

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This is harsh, to be sure; but it is consistent with the nature of a world under the control of Satan.

Now about all those who have suffered and died in this abominable world, those who knew God and those who did not:

They get another chance:

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5: 29,29)

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Intrepid wrote:

It is the fulfillment that is the change. It is not the old laws that He speaks of when He says "not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

That is why Paul tells us that the "law has become our tutor leading to Christ." (Galatians 3:24)

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What do you think that He means in Matthew when he says, "until it all comes true." Do you think he means the old law? That would not be logical.

One...almost nothing about the Bible is "logical!"

Two: Here is the quote:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true." Matthew 5:17ff

C'mon, Neo.

The sentence is about as clumsy a sentence as it is possible to construct...but anyone coming away from the thrust of that paragraph convinced that Jesus was saying “I am changing things” rather than “I am NOT changing things”...really has serious mental problems.

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Just an educated guess, Frank.

That's what I figured. I just couldn't understand why you would state a guess as:

"The fact is that Jesus is not God."

Any particular reason you didn't write that, "My guess is that Jesus is not God?"

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But I've been in it all along. (John 8:44) (1John 5:19)

You know how this works, Neo. You really gotta do a quote here. No fair just putting a citation that we have to go look up.

If you really, really want to get into this!

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This is harsh, to be sure; but it is consistent with the nature of a world under the control of Satan.

Only way Satan can be in control...is if your god allows him to be in control. And if you god allows him to be in control...your god is in control.

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Now about all those who have suffered and died in this abominable world, those who knew God and those who did not:

They get another chance:

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5: 29,29)

This is all red-herring here.

The discussion was about the difference between what Jesus taught...and the expectations and commandments of the god of the Bible.

Go back to that. This other stuff means nothing to me.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

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What do you think that He means in Matthew when he says, "until it all comes true." Do you think he means the old law? That would not be logical.

One...almost nothing about the Bible is "logical!"

Two: Here is the quote:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true." Matthew 5:17ff

C'mon, Neo.

The sentence is about as clumsy a sentence as it is possible to construct...but anyone coming away from the thrust of that paragraph convinced that Jesus was saying “I am changing things” rather than “I am NOT changing things”...really has serious mental problems.

Like thinking I am Neo? Laughing

It seems that you coloured only the parts that you want to use. You should take off the coloured glasses and see it for what it is.

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Oops, of course I meant, Intrepid.

But you can play with that paragraph all you want...and if you come away with the thrust being "I am here to change things" rather than “I am NOT changing things”...you've got major problems.

Intrepid!

You have to see that...so I can only assume there are other reasons why you pretend it means what it doesn't,

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Frank Apisa wrote:

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Just an educated guess, Frank.
. . . Any particular reason you didn't write that, "My guess is that Jesus is not God?"

Because I just know it, Frank. Wink

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Frank Apisa wrote:

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But I've been in it all along. (John 8:44) (1John 5:19)

You know how this works, Neo. You really gotta do a quote here. No fair just putting a citation that we have to go look up.

If you really, really want to get into this!

Yeah, but Frank:
I thought you knew all these by heart!
(John 8:44) "That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]"
(1John 5:19)". . . the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one."

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Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . Only way Satan can be in control...is if your god allows him to be in control. And if you god allows him to be in control...your god is in control. . .

I don't mean to diminish the other points you made here, Frank; but this one is outstanding:

Yes. God is in control. And he has given assurance that Satan's day of rebellion is temporary:
From the beginning:
(Genesis 3:15) "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel"
Through the middle:
(Isaiah 65:17) "For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart." (Also surrounding text)
And, speaking of Jesus:
(1Corinthians: 25-26) "25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."
To the end:
(Revelation 21: 1-4)"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”"

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How come I'm the only one who gives people thumbs up? Sad

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Let's face it, Frank. Neither of us can say for absolutely, positively certain, that we can define the meaning without a shadow of a doubt. We could debate until we both end up wherever it is that we may end up, but until that time we are both, at best, making our best guess.

Neutral

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