The call to exodus

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[+2] - aidan - 01/12/2009[quote]Again please indulge me to explain this as I think those in the video see it: Again they aren't talking literal rewrite here, but they are talking an ideological rewrite from the...
[+1] - Foxfyre - 01/11/2009This is an interesting topic Gunga though I imagine it will attract a lot of trollish and insulting posts. Perhaps a few thoughtful people will also be attracted who might actually want to discuss...
[+1] - gungasnake - 01/11/2009The basic simple reality as I understand it is that nobody can hope to prevail in any sort of culture war while sending their children off to the enemy for indoctrination. Republicans,...
[+1] - Setanta - 01/11/2009I've tagged this "conservative whiners" because of not simply Gunga's last idiotic comment, but because of Fox's typical persecution complex. Her contention that it will attract people...
[+1] - JTT - 01/11/2009http://able2know.org/topic/127255-16 Post: # 3,529,589 [quote]Foofie: Not being an American you might need to familiarize yourself with this: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the...
[+1] - aidan - 01/11/2009I'm extremely confused. In what aspects of public education do these people (or any poster here) find aspects of cultural marxism? Simply because Christian doctrine and religious teaching are...
[+1] - Foxfyre - 01/11/2009I don't pretend to be an authority and, again, I don't know anything about the group featured in the thread starter, Aiden, but I'll give it a shot from my perspective of what I think the problem...
[+1] - farmerman - 01/11/2009Most all of the teachers and admin people at my local public school system are religious, they are not really liberal, (more liberal on fiscal than social issues), and they are members of community...
[+1] - JTT - 01/11/2009[quote]But I think it probably also strikes a sympathetic chord with many who are frustrated and angry that our educational system doesn't educate as we think it should.[/quote] "I pledge...
[+1] - aidan - 01/11/2009[quote]There is concern that history books are being rewritten to remove much of the subject matter that used to be used to build patriotism, pride in country, and respect for the principles upon...

This is an interesting topic Gunga though I imagine it will attract a lot of trollish and insulting posts. Perhaps a few thoughtful people will also be attracted who might actually want to discuss the topic.

Setting aside the makeup/source of the sponsoring group of which I know nothing about, the thesis here has to do with concern of some that those who control education, control the future of the country coupled with concern that much of public education is indoctrinating children with a form of cultural marxism. The net result is that we are creating a generation of cultural marxists. And, they suggest that Christian parents should remove their children from this exposure that they feel is overwhelming the lesser saturation of parental and religious influence.

And before the anti-religionists jump on this as something from the religious looney bin, what view would you take if somehow the education system was taken over by Christians pushing a clearly Christian agenda and you were powerless to change that? Would you support parents removing their children from such a system?

Access to the video Gungasnake linked. The featured spokespersons do not appear to be radical fanatics, but what they are proposing is radical:

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRGZLSVph3A

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@Foxfyre,

The basic simple reality as I understand it is that nobody can hope to prevail in any sort of culture war while sending their children off to the enemy for indoctrination. Republicans, conservatives and Christians have gone on for a long time believing that the problem might go away after a while; apparently enough of them are waking up that the thing might get critical mass in the near future.

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I've tagged this "conservative whiners" because of not simply Gunga's last idiotic comment, but because of Fox's typical persecution complex. Her contention that it will attract people (plural) who will abuse the author is predicated upon an assumption that people will pay very much attention to this thread. I could be wrong, but i suspect it will not attract very much attention.

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http://able2know.org/topic/127255-16

Post: # 3,529,589

Quote:

Foofie: Not being an American you might need to familiarize yourself with this:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

I, and all other students, said it every day for nine years, right hand over the heart, facing the American flag, while in the lower grades. By the time I was in the military during the Vietnam Era, there was no confusion about my country.

'Nuf said.

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I'm extremely confused. In what aspects of public education do these people (or any poster here) find aspects of cultural marxism?

Simply because Christian doctrine and religious teaching are not encouraged or allowed at school? They've NEVER been encouraged or taught, at least not at any public school I've ever attended or taught at in four different states. There has always been separation of church and state. How has that changed? Why should it?
Do these people have any idea of how many children of different nationalities and religions attend many of the public schools in not only urban communities, but suburban communities?
If you bow to the adherents of one religion, then you'd have to cater to adherents of all of them...how would that possibly work?

Why are education and curriculum being politicized?
Do they really envision teachers standing at the front of the class and spouting marxist propaganda as they teach English, math and history?
These people speak about the 'left' (and I assume they mean people who support the democratic party) as if they're enemies, when in fact they may be friends and neighbors who simply view things differently.

This is exactly the sort of thing that makes people think that all Christians are nutcases. These people sound fanatical and paranoid even to me and I was raised in a conservative Christian home.

This reminds me of a friend who upbraided me for allowing my children to attend public school. She spoke of the children who attended public school as if they were the devil's spawn. I said, 'They're other five year old children - for god's sake- my children won't be permanently harmed by sitting next to them and learning to read and write.

I think people should attend a day of public school and get a realistic view of what happens there- it's really not as sinister and negative as these people make it seem.

Because the fact of the matter is, most teachers are so f***ing terrified of offending some kid's parents and/or being misunderstood or misinterpreted that they bend over backward to keep their own beliefs and values out of the classroom.

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@aidan,

I don't pretend to be an authority and, again, I don't know anything about the group featured in the thread starter, Aiden, but I'll give it a shot from my perspective of what I think the problem is.

No, I don't think the issue is that religion isn't pushed/taught at school.

I think the concern is the perception that history books are being rewritten to remove much of the subject matter that used to be used to build patriotism, pride in country, and respect for the principles upon which it was founded. In its place are suggestions that many Americans are oppressed by the rich and greedy and it is up to government to save them. This isn't something that's 'in your face, of course but it is subtle and innocuous as well as expressing concern and caring for the less fortunate--which it may be. The effect is thought to diminish America as basically a good country and good people in the minds of the children and rather make them think of themselves as victims in need of laws, policy, and government initiatives to rescue them so that it is the little guy who calls the shots. In short--Marxism.

None of this is clearly obvious and there is room to suspect that the problem may be significantly exaggerated by the sponsoring group. But I think it probably also strikes a sympathetic chord with many who are frustrated and angry that our educational system doesn't educate as we think it should.

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@aidan,

Most all of the teachers and admin people at my local public school system are religious, they are not really liberal, (more liberal on fiscal than social issues), and they are members of community organizations and local government. Im wondering how they constitute an "enemy".

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

But I think it probably also strikes a sympathetic chord with many who are frustrated and angry that our educational system doesn't educate as we think it should.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

I, and all other students, said it every day for nine years, right hand over the heart, facing the American flag, while in the lower grades. By the time I was in the military during the Vietnam Era, there was no confusion about my country.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

There is concern that history books are being rewritten to remove much of the subject matter that used to be used to build patriotism, pride in country, and respect for the principles upon which it was founded. In its place are suggestions that many Americans are oppressed by the rich and greedy and it is up to government to save them. This isn't something that's 'in your face, of course but it is subtle and innocuous as well as expressing concern and caring for the less fortunate--which it may be. The effect is thought to diminish America as basically a good country and good people in the minds of the children and rather make them think of themselves as victims in need of laws, policy, and government initiatives to rescue them so that it is the little guy who calls the shots. In short--Marxism

Really? Well, I haven't seen the history texts that have been rewritten in the last four years, but I have read and modified history texts in American and World history for reading disabled highschoolers, and I NEVER came across any part of the text that I felt either explicitly or implicitly relayed that message.

And I believe, actually, that changes did need to happen in the history texts. Additions have been made, which I am happy to have seen made, that note and honor the contributions of ALL Americans to the founding, building, and enrichment of our country.

If anything, these texts are more truthful and factual than the ones I read when I was taking history as a highschooler. And they don't degrade America and Americans. But they do do a much better job of displaying what a complex and enriching tapestry and really miracle of achievement our society is and has become in less than 250 years. If anything, they do MORE to celebrate exactly what America is and has become DESPITE all the missteps along the way.

I don't think adults give kids nearly enough credit.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

I don't have any enemies at school, religious, conservative, nonreligious, liberal - whatever. You don't think I'm saying I think they're enemies- do you?
What I'm saying is that I think it's sad and a shame to view people you live among and work with as such just because they view things differently. I just don't understand the need for it.

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
There is concern that history books are being rewritten to remove much of the subject matter that used to be used to build patriotism, pride in country, and respect for the principles upon which it was founded. In its place are suggestions that many Americans are oppressed by the rich and greedy and it is up to government to save them. This isn't something that's 'in your face, of course but it is subtle and innocuous as well as expressing concern and caring for the less fortunate--which it may be. The effect is thought to diminish America as basically a good country and good people in the minds of the children and rather make them think of themselves as victims in need of laws, policy, and government initiatives to rescue them so that it is the little guy who calls the shots. In short--Marxism

Really? Well, I haven't seen the history texts that have been rewritten in the last four years, but I have read and modified history texts in American and World history for reading disabled highschoolers, and I NEVER came across any part of the text that I felt either explicitly or implicitly relayed that message.

And I believe, actually, that changes did need to happen in the history texts. Additions have been made, which I am happy to have seen made, that note and honor the contributions of ALL Americans to the founding, building, and enrichment of our country.

If anything, these texts are more truthful and factual than the ones I read when I was taking history as a highschooler. And they don't degrade America and Americans. But they do do a much better job of displaying what a complex and enriching tapestry and really miracle of achievement our society is and has become in less than 250 years. If anything, they do MORE to celebrate exactly what America is and has become DESPITE all the missteps along the way.

I don't think adults give kids nearly enough credit.

I didn't mean literally rewritten, Aiden, but rewritten in the sense of how the text is being framed and presented. I agree that kids should be taught the real deal, but I myself have questioned how much fuzzy ideology is making its way into the classroom. William Ayers, for instance, was mentioned in the video and I can't imagine somebody like him teaching anything in a way that would put America in any kind of positive light no matter what textbook he uses.

Farmerman, if I am interpreting his post correctly, did pick up on that and seems to think it overblown based on what he perceives to be the ideology of his educator associates.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Well, in some cases, in order to be factually correct, they did need to be literally rewritten. But I wasn't necessarily stating that in my post.
What I do mean to say is that unless you've read the history texts, you shouldn't assume that they'd be written and used to deride and demean America and its values to American children.
And I'm wondering why people would assume teachers would want to portray America to American children in a negative light.

The truth is important. I think kids today are getting a truer and more accurate representation of the history of our country than kids did when I was in highschool. I don't think that can be bad.

I also think people should reevaluate why they think that children would automatically interpret or want to interpret the truth in such a manner that it would cast them as victims.

I just haven't seen that in most of the students I've worked with- no matter what their race, nationality, religion or socioeconomic status.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

I think the concern is the perception that history books are being rewritten to remove much of the subject matter that used to be used to build patriotism

Yeah, we refer to a lot of these things as 'lies about history' at this point. Not that such-and-such events didn't take place, but a detailed examination of history shows that people in those days - including many of the 'sainted heroes' of both the right and left wing - were essentially the same as those today: rarely noble and often possessed of the same avarice and moral shallowness that Conservatives bemoan in our modern society.

The ability to point backwards to a 'golden age' of American values and morals is 100% linked to the Conservative Ethos; it's difficult to justify a continually recommendation of the values, laws and policies of yesteryear if you don't honestly believe that life was better then than it is now.

What you are seeing in these videos is an intrusion of the parent's ideology, and their fixation upon a certain view of the past, into their common sense. The truth is that America is not much different from any other country when it comes to being a 'basically good country' these days, and the common American is no more or less decent than the common person in the entire world. The whole viewpoint of 'American Exceptionalism' is harmful to our nation, for it is mostly about lying yourself into a sense of moral superiority when dealing with other nations and peoples.

Cycloptichorn

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Well, in some cases, in order to be factually correct, they did need to be literally rewritten. But I wasn't necessarily stating that in my post.
What I do mean to say is that unless you've read the history texts, you shouldn't assume that they'd be written and used to deride and demean America and its values to American children.
And I'm wondering why people would assume teachers would want to portray America to American children in a negative light.

The truth is important. I think kids today are getting a truer and more accurate representation of the history of our country than kids did when I was in highschool. I don't think that can be bad.

I also think people should reevaluate why they think that children would automatically interpret or want to interpret the truth in such a manner that it would cast them as victims.

I just haven't seen that in most of the students I've worked with- no matter what their race, nationality, religion or socioeconomic status.

Again please indulge me to explain this as I think those in the video see it:

Again they aren't talking literal rewrite here, but they are talking an ideological rewrite from the perspective of the teacher. And the reason that the teacher would ideologically 'rewrite' the history is because the teacher himself or herself believes America and Americans to be inferior to other cultures, to be greedy or exploitive or imperialistic or mercenary or whatever. The teacher was taught or came to believe it through association with cultists from the 60's or from Europe who otherwise received enlightenment and who have had their eyes open to see the evil around us.

They thus must depict our culture as one structured to keep the little guy--the poor, the lame, the minority, the female, the gay, the disadvantaged etc. etc. etc.,i.e. the victim--down. The only remedy for this is to take down the oppressor--interpret that rich and powerful--and it is the duty of government to do that and the duty of all concerned people to see that it is done so that a utopia of peace, tolerance, and equality for all will be established.

This mindset permeates all of education but is all based on a historical perspective.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

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@Foxfyre,

Exodus Mandate "is a Christian ministry to encourage and assist Christian families to leave Pharaoh's school system (i.e. government schools) for the Promised Land of Christian schools or home schooling. It is our prayer and hope that a fresh obedience by Christian families in educating their children according to Biblical mandates will prove to be a key for the revival of our families, our churches and our nation."

I could imagine that you wont find cultists from the 60's or from Europe in the 'Promised Land of Christian Schools'.

But I must admit that I'm rather glad that we all get the very same schoolbooks here, be it in a Catholic, Evangelical, "free" or 'public' (run by the town council) highschool ("Gymnasium" in German) here in my hometown - and anywhere else in any German state.

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Then again.....

As far back as the mid 60s I'd have told anybody who ever asked that the single thing you could do which would produce the greatest improvement in American public education would be to eliminate the school of education in every college and university in the land.

That had nothing to do with religion; it had to do with the question of whether or not I wanted my kids learning math from somebody with 40 semester hours of education courses and 20 hours of math. I don't.

The NEA of course, is produced by those same ed schools.

This of course is totally aside from any problems which Christians might have with the NEA, the dept. of education, or the government school monopoly.

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

So you home school?

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@JTT,

I would if I had any kids of school age.

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There is in fact another problem which nobody talks about which has nothing to do with religion.

There actually are public school systems like those of Fairfax County Va. or Montgomery County Md. which are still more or less functional. In those cases, the question you have to ask is, "At what cost?"

The cost in those places is usually somewhere between around 9K and around 12K per kid per year.

At that rate, even if you had classrooms of 20 students throughout, you're talking $200,000 per year for a classroom. For that much money in most parts of America you could build a little red schoolhouse, hire Ivy League profs to teach in it on a part time basis, and have money leftover.

Typical private schools operate on half that or less and usually less, and typically do a better job of educating kids.

The question is, couldn't the residents of Fairfax County Va. be saving half those sums for their kids' college educations??

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The call to exodus

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