Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

What other countries do you consider to have got this "status"? And what are your sources?

When I've read history for pleasurable reading, I did not know that sometime in the future I was going to be interrogated for authentification. Your using a euphemism of military jargon for the annexation of Austria is silly, in my opinion. In many histories of the event, the Austrians were literally joyful to join the Third Reich. No brain washing was needed. Plus, Austria was 98% Catholic, I read. They didn't need to be convinced that Jews should be verboten from the Reich, as I read. Let's not forget Hitler was Austrian, and remembered better days during the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

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@Foofie,

I've history for pleasure and academically. I've never read (= in no German or English book) that more countries besides Austria were "angeschlossen" or the term "Anschluss" was used.
Thus I asked about the number of countries and the source.

Might be that the use of "a euphemism of military jargon" is silly. But that's the meaning of the term(s).

1 Reply

@Foofie,

You are one arrogant dude without cause.

You said the situation of social injustice for blacks can not compare to Israeli discrimination because it is about turf among ethnics. (something like that.) bobsal's reply of which you were too lazy to read said:

Quote:

Racism in Israel refers to all forms and manifestations of racism experienced in Israel, irrespective of the colour or creed of the perpetrator and victim, or their citizenship, residency, or visitor status.

More specifically in the Israeli context, however, racism in Israel refers to racism directed against Israeli Arabs by Israeli Jews,[1] intra-Jewish racism between the various Jewish ethnic divisions (in particular against Ethiopian Jews,[2] and to historic and alleged current racism towards Mizrahi Jews and other Jews of colour), and racism on the part of Israeli Arabs against Israeli Jews.

So going by the article bosoal posted, you are wrong. Racism in Israel involves more than just biological race but all of those factors mentioned above.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

(Part of) Page 82 about the Anschluss at the Library of Congress' book http://www.loc.gov/resource/frdcstdy.austriacountryst00sols_0/?sp=82][b]Austria -a case study[/b]

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Plus, Austria was 98% Catholic, I read.

I sincerely doubt that number - even during the times of Catholicsm being a state church (during the monarchy) it never has been so high. (98% would mean, that only Jews and Catholics lived in 1938's Austria, with some tenthousand Jews left out)

Between 1938 and 1945, 748 Austrian Catholic and five Evangelical priests were send to concentration camps.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

Racism in Israel involves more than just biological race but all of those factors mentioned above.

Racism involves races. If the language is not nuanced enough then a new word needs to be coined. But, we already have ethnocentrism. And, that is not as offensive as racism, since different ethnic urban neighborhoods exist because of ethnocentrism. After the neighborhood became an ethnocentric neighborhood, it might be fairer to say that a degree of racism might be reflecting the attempt to keep another group out of the neighborhood. Regardless, racism and ethnocentrism are not really synonyms.

I hope you felt happier by defining me as, "one arrogant dude without cause."
You are incorrect. Nor do I have to, nor want to, correct you. You may live contentedly in your world; don't define me and mine.

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@revelette2,

Quote:

Racism in Israel refers to all forms and manifestations of racism experienced in Israel, irrespective of the colour or creed of the perpetrator and victim, or their citizenship, residency, or visitor status.

More specifically in the Israeli context, however, racism in Israel refers to racism directed against Israeli Arabs by Israeli Jews,[1] intra-Jewish racism between the various Jewish ethnic divisions (in particular against Ethiopian Jews,[2] and to historic and alleged current racism towards Mizrahi Jews and other Jews of colour), and racism on the part of Israeli Arabs against Israeli Jews.

Reveled, Racism is very much alive in Israel...why not? Israelis are just as prone to human frailties as any other ethnic group since there is only one race. However, when we say "race" most people understand exactly what people mean. I believe you mentioned the quote above was written by Bobsal. I have printed a link below showing how Israel admitted to Sterilizing Ethiopian Jews who are black.
______________
"Israeli Government Admits to Sterilizing Ethiopian Jews
February 21, 2012 According to recent Forbes and Haaretz articles, the Israeli government has been pursuing a long term plan of sterilization of immigrant Ethiopian Jews. The Depo-Prevara injections were enforced upon women in transit camps in Ethiopia. One might ask: why? At this point, no absolutely clear answer can be given. There are, of course, speculations about racial motives; that is, with the Israeli ruling class being mainly of Ashkenazi back ground, while the Ethiopian Jews are not. The outrage eventually led to the Israeli government suspending injections unless the women understood the ramifications. The shots have led to a drop in the Ethiopian Jewish birth-rate by about 20%.

"According to the UK Independent:

“The drug in question is thought to be Depo-Provera, which is injected very three months and is considered to be a highly effective,
long-lasting contraceptive.”

"As well as noting:

“Sharona Eliahu Chai, a lawyer for the Association of Civil Rights in
Israel (ACRI), said: “Findings from investigations into the use of Depo
Provera are extremely worrisome, raising concerns of harmful health
policies with racist implications in violation of medical ethics. The
Ministry of Health’s director-general was right to act quickly and put
forth new guidelines.”

http://nftu.net/israeli-government-admits-sterilizing-ethiopian-jews/

1 Reply

@Foofie,

"Racial justice" here is used to mean "out-group justice," and your point is merely a logomachy that you employ to avoid the issue at hand: the Zionists' discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

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@Foofie,

If a black family wanted to move into a certain white upper class neighborhood and was denied, they could sue for discrimination. You act as though "turf wars" are acceptable.

Quote:

What Is Housing Discrimination?

Housing discrimination is a pervasive problem nationwide. It is also severely under-reported. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that more than two million instances of housing discrimination occur each year, but fewer than one percent are reported.

Many people are unaware that they have been victims of housing discrimination. A 2002 study by HUD suggests that many renters and homebuyers do not fully understand which activities are illegal under the Fair Housing Act.

If you think your rights to fair housing have been violated, help is available. Housing discrimination complaints can be filed by phone or in writing, with HUD and/or with private fair housing enforcement agencies located across the country.

The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing on the basis of:
•Race or color
•National origin
•Religion
•Sex
•Familial status (families with children)
•Disability

Under the Fair Housing Act, the following activities are illegal:
•Refuse to rent or sell housing
•Refuse to negotiate for housing
•Make housing unavailable
•Set different terms, conditions, or privileges for sale or rental
•Provide different housing services or facilities
•Falsely deny that housing is available for inspection, sale or rental
•For profit, persuade owners to sell or rent (blockbusting)
•Deny any access to or membership in a facility or service (such as a multiple listing service) related to the sale of housing
•Refuse to make reasonable accommodations in rules or services if necessary for a disabled person to use the housing
•Refuse to allow a disabled person to make reasonable accommodations to his/her dwelling
•Threaten or interfere with anyone making a fair housing complaint
•Refuse to provide municipal services, property insurance or hazard insurance for dwellings, or providing such services or insurance differently

source

I see no discernable difference between racism and ethnocentrism as both is discrimination which should not exist in a democratic nation. Both Israel and the US are guilty of discrimination. Why are you resisting the notion?

1 Reply

@korkamann,

Racism is merely a much overused word to describe one of many forms of intolerance. The history of the world is a story of intolerance and oppression by just about everyone and inflicted on just about everyone else at one time or another.

The original Celtic population of Britain was oppressed by the Roman invaders and they and the Celts were, in turn later oppressed by subsequent Angle and Saxon invaders. Later the Norman Franks arrived on the scene and took over. Still later they all moved into Scotland and Ireland for more of the same. The same story could be told almost anywhere in the world including the Middle East and Palestine.

The simple fact is that the European Jews who fled Europe en masse after WWII were escaping a fairly brutal attempt at extermination. Hard to find great fault with that. They created a democratic and prosperous state for themselves, but encountered vigorous resistance from local Moslem populations that had been at war with Europeran countries for centuries and was later colonized by them.

All things considered it's a bit of a stretch to reduce this to a story of "Zionist racism". I recognize that the demands of contemporary political correctitude will admit nothing less, but recognize this to be itself nothing more than yet another form of intolerance by those who presume to sit in judgment of others.

The simple fact is that all human lives matter and that all those who single out one group over the others are more or less practicing the same form of intolerance.

I believe Israel has indeed exceeded the bounds of perfect justice in its treatment of Palestinians. However, in terms of the norms in human history those excesses are hardly either unique or even unusual. Certainly their Sunni and Shia Moslem and Kurdish neighbors are showing a good deal less tolerance for each other than are the Israelis for the Palestinians. Unfortunately few of the self righteous critics here appear to recognize that simple truth.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

So because racism has always existed and is part of the norm of history, it is intolerant to point it out on the part of Israel and their discrimination of other nationalities inside Israel and Palestinians? If people accepted that argument, progress would never be made. The nations such as Iraq and Iran and other such nations who practice the same intolerance do not claim to be a democratic nation, nor do we hold them up as example as such when talking about why we support Israel as the "only democratic nation in the region."

Israel did not create a democratic state for themselves, the UN did at the expense of the other people living there. Of course they were and are going to resist, we would too.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

So because racism has always existed and is part of the norm of history, it is intolerant to point it out on the part of Israel and their discrimination of other nationalities inside Israel and Palestinians?

Yes it is if you don't put your criticism in a meaningful context. Right now Moslem fanatics are slaughtering Christians, Kurds, and other Moslems. They have very clearly expressed their intent to do the same to Israel. That contrast is quite notably absent from your commentary.

revelette2 wrote:

If people accepted that argument, progress would never be made.

Please indicate your historical arguments for your strange implication that any real progress has yet been made towards tolerance and justice since the dawn of human civilization. Civilization and justice wax and wane over time and place, but there is no evidence of any monotone progress in the annals of history. The late 20th century was one of the most brutal and murderous on record.

revelette2 wrote:

The nations such as Iraq and Iran and other such nations who practice the same intolerance do not claim to be a democratic nation, nor do we hold them up as example as such when talking about why we support Israel as the "only democratic nation in the region."

Democracy is no guarantee of either justice or tolerance. Hitler's Germany started from the Weimar democracy in that country. The French Terror in 1994 was done by a Democracy. The British Empire was created and expanded largely by a democratic government in the homeland. Several democracies, including the United States practised slavery. The Soviet Union characterized itself as a Socialist Democracy, as do some of the remaining relics of that system in N Korea and Cuba.

revelette2 wrote:

Israel did not create a democratic state for themselves, the UN did at the expense of the other people living there. Of course they were and are going to resist, we would too.

Nonsense. The UN didn't create anything there. The British were broke and eager to get out of the mess they created in Palestine since WWI. The United States was eager to find a solution for the displaced Jews leaving Europe. The other European countries, in the aftermath of WWII, were eager to see their displaced populations leave. Together they controlled the UN and they merely ratified what the Jewish settlers and Zionists had already done.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Lots of Lutherans in Austria, also!

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@Foofie,

Forget the Funk and Wagners, we have a Foof and Wigglers. So thats how you want to win this argument. You get to make all the definitions.

You are one sorry ass.

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@revelette2,

Quote:

no discernable difference between racism and ethnocentrism as both is discrimination

Absoposilutely.

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It's pretty obtuse to point to the other conflicts going on in the region as a criticism of the lack of context seeing as how the US and the West are actively addressing those other conflicts--conflicts which were touched off as a result of self-serving and incompetent US and Western intervention in the region--what with US spending in Iraq alone to fight ISIS there amounting to approximately 7.5 million dollars a day, according to the Pentagon, all the while the US is giving the Zionists 3 billion dollars annually in military aid that goes directly to the Zionists' brutal oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

That Islamist extremists want to slaughter Israelis doesn't justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples. They are extremist on opposite sides of the same coin with the difference being the US and the West's support of the Zionists' repression that they've honed to an to a fine art: kinder, gentler discrimination and oppression. One sees in the fire bombing of Palestinian dwellings and the murder of Palestinian infants what the Zionists are capable of given just a suggestion of the loss of the status quo that maintains in their favor.

Both the Islamist and Zionist extremists should be persecuted and their repressive regimes destroyed.

It's cynical to compare the situations occurring in ancient history and the Middle Ages with those of today and smugly dismissing them as the norms of imperfect human history.

If the world could effect out-group justice in South Africa it can do so in Palestine as well.

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@bobsal u1553115,

bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Lots of Lutherans in Austria, also!

Certainly, and traditionally.
In 1938, 5.9% of the Austrian population belonged to the two main Evangelical Churches ["Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession" (Lutheran) and "Evangelical Curch of Helvetian Confession" (Reformed). 3% to other Evangelical Churches.]

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@InfraBlue,

Best explanation, yet. I honestly wish I could have said it that well. Thanks!

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@Walter Hinteler,

Interesting! I've never heard of those Lutheran brothers and sisters before!

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

"Racial justice" here is used to mean "out-group justice," and your point is merely a logomachy that you employ to avoid the issue at hand: the Zionists' discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

You avoid one issue I believe. That being that if there had been no Holocaust there would be 32 million Jews worldwide today. Instead only a paltry 14 million. So, the West Bank functions (a la eminent domain) as a good place to start replenishing the lake with fish, so to speak, with religious Jews that have ten children in a family.

Notice that after the Civil War, in the U.S., Southerners were allowed to live peacefully to restock the 600,000 (current estimates show that the Confederacy actually lost 300,000 more than reported since Reconstruction) Southern men lost. Not so for the Jews apparently.

The point being that your concerns might not apply to Jews, when Jews learned in a two millenia lesson that anti-Semitic, hateful, murderous Christians like to kill Jews, culminating in the Final Solution.

And, note that Germans don't live in the Sudetenland. And, Crimea recently was taken over by Russia. You have identified a GLOBAL phenomenon. Unfortunately, the planet is not expanding like the universe, and everyone doesn't get lebensraum without a fight.

3 Replies

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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