Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@izzythepush,

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If, like Oralboy, you also give a free pass to right wing Holocaust deniers, it's the worst form of hypocrisy imaginable.

I understand your post more fully now.

An aside note: As for Oralloy's posts, I do not place any credence on such.

a) I have him on ignore, along with coldjoint, giujohn, and billrm. I merely read quotes by him posted in others' messages.

b) Oralloy responses are upside down and that poster, if reading him too long, would reduced me to a raving maniac! Trust me, I understand your reluctance to correspond with him. To show you how dysfunctional Oralloy is, his defense of a person/group will turn the average person against said person/group, so vile are his attacks. He defends Knox and vulgar slangs the dead victim, Meredith Ketcher. His execrable attacks on the responsible bar owner whom knox lied on, claiming he committed the murder, is unforgivable.

Oralloy has a defective mind.

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@izzythepush,

Whats with the "That's right" twice ? Do you think you are delivering shocking knowledge or are you getting all worked up at your end with your 'revelation' ?

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You Said: Whenever the supporters of Palestinian persecution have to resort to the Holocaust, they've lost the argument.

Is that a fact or your opinion ? How about whenever the supporters of Jewish persecution try to downplay the Holocaust they've lost the argument ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
From your ref:

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Lehi was created in August 1940 by Avraham Stern.[16] Stern had been a member of the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi – "National Military Organization") high command. Zeev Jabotinsky, then the Irgun's supreme commander, had decided that diplomacy and working with Britain would best serve the Zionist cause. World War II was in progress, and Britain was fighting Nazi Germany. The Irgun suspended its underground military activities against the British for the duration of the war.

Stern argued that the time for Zionist diplomacy was over and that it was time for armed struggle against the British. Like other Zionists, he objected to the White Paper of 1939, which restricted both Jewish immigration and Jewish land purchases in Palestine. For Stern, 'no difference existed between Hitler and Chamberlain, between Dachau or Buchenwald and sealing the gates of Eretz Israel.'[23]

Stern wanted to open Palestine to all Jewish refugees from Europe, and considered this as by far the most important issue of the day. Britain would not allow this. Therefore, he concluded, the Yishuv (Jews of Palestine) should fight the British rather than support them in the war. When the Irgun made a truce with the British, Stern left the Irgun to form his own group, which he called Irgun Tsvai Leumi B'Yisrael ("National Military Organization in Israel"), later Lohamei Herut Israel ("Fighters for the Freedom of Israel").

Stern and his followers believed that dying for the 'foreign occupier' who was obstructing the creation of the Jewish State was useless. They differentiated between 'enemies of the Jewish people' (the British) and 'Jew haters' (the Nazis), believing that the former needed to be defeated and the latter manipulated.[citation needed]

In September 1940, the organization was officially named "Lehi".[16]

In 1940, the idea of the Final Solution was still "unthinkable", and Stern believed that Hitler wanted to make Germany judenrein through emigration, as opposed to extermination.[23][24] In December 1940, Lehi even contacted Germany with a proposal to aid German conquest in the Middle East in return for recognition of a Jewish state open to unlimited immigration.

Did you quote mine ? He was not a Nazi and was trying to use the Nazis to create Israel . The group never had more than 100 members and were ignored by the Nazis from 1941 .

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You Said: when Israel came face to face with a real Nazi they gave him the A bomb

South African and Jewish Governments have denied the claim . Two men interpreted documents as being proof that Israel sold technology to the South Africans . However,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

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Avner Cohen, author of Israel and the Bomb and the forthcoming The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb, said "Nothing in the documents suggests there was an actual offer by Israel to sell nuclear weapons to the regime in Pretoria."

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On 19 August 1994, after completing its inspection, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) confirmed that one partially completed and six fully completed nuclear weapons had been dismantled.

They dont seem to have helped much though, do they ? 18 years later, the South Africans had managed to build six bombs, plus one being built, plus one other test device . Meanwhile, Israel seems to have managed somewhere between 70 to 400 devices . If I had of been helped to so little an extent I wouldnt even call it help . You of course would know the USA gave the South Africans a Nuclear Energy program from 1957 to 1967 .

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You said: what's going on in the here and now...Let's stick to the here and now

You have a very small definition of the here and now , survivors from the holocaust are still alive and already some people deny it occurred . Then there is your type who say it doesnt matter but cite the 1940's . Your big play is giving Nuclear Bomb technology to Nazis but you say this was done in 1976....that is closer to the height of the Holocaust then it is to today . So which is it ?

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(John Vorster) a former Nazi sympathiser

So were a lot of people in the USA, Europe, Russia...we have mentioned the Arabs...members of the British Royal Family were sympathisers...but that changed with war and the Holocaust that you dont like to talk about for obvious reasons .

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@izzythepush,

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I Wrote: And your Pals (isnt that a lovely name ?)

You Wrote: Not at all, it's a word used by bigots.

Who's going to tell RABEL222 because thats where I got it from . How many bigots do you know who use that word ?

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@Ionus,

I'm no supporter of the Royal family. And there is a difference between those who sympathised with the Nazis prior to WW2, and the Lehi who tried to form a pact with them to fight against the British during WW2 especially after the horrors of Kristallnacht. There's also a colossal difference between the Arabs who were fighting British imperialism making common cause with the Nazis, and the Lehi who were willing to put the horrors of Nazi Germany to one side to pursue their own colonial ambitions.

You just want to revel in the persecution of the Palestinians no matter what, regardless of how untenable and hypocritical your argument is. And what's worse is you've witnessed this persecution first hand.

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@izzythepush,

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I couldn't agree with you more, which is why I, unlike Ionus, have robustly and repeatedly condemned Carlos le Baron's Holocaust denial and Krumple's belittling the true extent of the Holocaust. Perhaps Ionus was unaware of their existence, he's only been back on A2K a few weeks. Or perhaps, like some Israel supporters, Oralboy being a prime example, he thinks Holocaust denial is fine as long as the denier shares his repugnant right wing views on other matters.

It appears I am a Holocaust denier now...you back off or the gloves come off .

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@Ionus,

Well you're one for starters.

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@izzythepush,

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And there is a difference between those who sympathised with the Nazis prior to WW2,

They sympathised right up till the Allies liberated concentration camps .

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and the Lehi who tried to form a pact with them to fight against the British during WW2

The attempt ended in 1941 . Not quite all the way through WW2 as you suggest .

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You just want to revel in the persecution of the Palestinians

You want unrestricted Jew bashings . Its your type who made the Nazis in the first place, not very clever, like to follow easy rules, hate thinking outside the box...

Arent you glad it is now fashionable to bash Jews again...that must have been hard for you, all that sympathy for the Jewish people enduring 2,000 years of torture, murder, theft, and the Holocaust . What happened to the Palestinians during that time ? Did anyone's donkey die ?

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@Ionus,

You have no answers so you just throw insults about. Your kind are incapable of feeling sympathy for your fellow human beings, just because you're motivated by hate you assume everyone else is. I think Jew bashing is terrible which is why I, unlike you, have taken issue with Holocaust deniers.

And the proposed deal between the Nazis and Lehi fell through because the Nazis wouldn't have any of it, not because of any moral issues on behalf of Lehi, which is why they were so happy to give the Nazis in South Africa nuclear technology.

I have argued for justice for Palestine, which is the end of the occupation of the West Bank, the dismantling of illegal settlements and the ending of the siege of Gaza. No different from umpteen UN resolutions. Nobody on this thread is advocating the destruction of Israel proper.

You're incapable of debating this subject without resorting to insults and deliberately misrepresenting your opponent's position. It's pathetic and childish, and the only reason you do it is because you know your argument is untenable which is why you keep trying to change the subject.

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@revelette2,

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You would think humans would learn from their own history, but, unfortunately, it rarely seems to be the case.

Unfortunately, Rev, Mankind is not a one-dimensional figure and possesses a range of emotions and ingenuity. The worse in Mankind can be seen on full display in all wars, including WW2. Also, on 9/11, and when the GWB invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq, where so many innocent Iraqis were killed and many became displaced refugees. The fact that our species has invented so very many nuclear bombs to use once again as it did regarding Nagasaki and Hiroshima reflects Man's subjective desire and need to repeat the dark side of our nature. No other animal starts worldwide wars or blasts whole regions of the earth into total ruin with nuclear weapons or biological/chemical nerve gas. Mankind is the most dangerous species on earth; he thinks and plans executions even of his own species.

I doubt Man's nature will change, but most of us do live and obey civilized rules of law which can only better our civilization.

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@izzythepush,

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Your kind are incapable of feeling sympathy for your fellow human beings

Unless I agree with you and feel nothing for the Jews...very clever of you .

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so you just throw insults about

Did you really say that ?

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And the proposed deal between the Nazis and Lehi fell through because the Nazis wouldn't have any of it, not because of any moral issues on behalf of Lehi,

You keep going on about one Jew, why is he so important to you ? It is because you cant find any others and you are aware of just how many Arabs are terrorists .

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they were so happy to give the Nazis in South Africa nuclear technology.

So your plan is to ignore the evidence and push on regardless . Rather emotional dont you think ?

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I have argued for justice for Palestine

And I have argued for Israel .

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No different from umpteen UN resolutions

If I had the UN on my side I would automatically suspect something had seriously gone wrong . Tell your friends to recognise the UN resolutions in their correct order...that would be a start .

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You're incapable of debating this subject without resorting to insults

Its not that you havent insulted me, its just that you dont like it in return . Apparently your ESP tells you I am a Holocaust denier and you havent waited for facts . You sure are emotional .Try logic for a change .

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it is because you know your argument is untenable which is why you keep trying to change the subject

Bring me back on subject then but wasnt it you who came up with the rule that 1940 was close enough to us to be introduced but not 1944 which was ancient history ?

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Nobody on this thread is advocating the destruction of Israel proper.

Just the Palestinians you support .

You cant debate without turning into an emotional wreck and then you try to insult your way out by calling me a holocaust denier despite my obvious support for Israel . People like you have always hated Jews . You have found a new reason for it to be fashionable, but of course you have to modify it to fit the times of green is God, greener is Goder .

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@izzythepush,

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Well you're one for starters.

If someone doesnt agree with you they are a bigot . Could be worse I suppose ....I could agree with you and be stupid .

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@Ionus,

You're doing a pretty good job of being stupid all on your own. All you've been able to offer are insults, heavily revised history and victim blaming. Your comments on the homosexual thread confirm you're a bigot. You derailed the thread on the crash in the Alps with a load of anti-French bigotry, which consisted of downright lies and an over reliance on some case which conveniently you were unable to find on the internet. That's a shame because, if what you say is true about your experience of flying, you could have made a useful contribution, as it is nobody will listen. And you went on to a poor-me, bleeding-heart, self-pitying tirade about how hard it is being a white man on a thread about racist language. Your claims about not being a racist if only we knew you are not borne out by the bigotry you demonstrate on A2K. And your claims about being an expert on practically everything will similarly be taken with a pinch of salt.

Not one of the bigots who've tried to smear me with the slur of anti-Semite have actually challenged Carlos le Baron's Holocaust denial. When Oralboy refers to the Palestinians as vermin, and Gungasnake calls them Palisavages you utter not a word of criticism, yet you have the brass neck to called even the mildest criticism of Israel anti-Semitic. That's hypocrisy at its most breathtaking .

You're clearly someone who is used to getting his own way, and when you're incapable of doing that by reasoned argument you just try to shout your opponents down. That won't cut any ice here, in fact it leaves you utterly discredited, and instead of being seen as an expert, a great many people see you as a raving nutcase, like Oralboy, Coldjoint and Gungasnake, definitely not someone to be taken seriously.

All you've managed to do is drive away the reasonable, decent supporters of Israel, of which there are many, because they don't want to be associated with bigots like you. Any neutral party viewing this thread would conclude that while the supporters of Palestinian self determination are reasonable and well informed, those of Israeli imperialism are a bunch of raving bigots. You're all so stupid that you continue to discredit your own argument with your repulsive behaviour.

There's not really any point discussing anything with you, and I did try. I've got far better things to do with my time than trade insults with you. You're going back on the ignore list.

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@izzythepush,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

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Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc

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You said : You're going back on the ignore list.

Right . I however refuse to put anyone on ignore because if the Army taught me one thing it is you never know who the hero is ...in this instance that means you never know who is going to either provide the next idea or will spur you into having a better one .
You loose on this thread for the very reasons you have attributed to me:

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insults, heavily revised history and victim blaming

I asked you to respond to the true historic events and all you did was bleet about one Israeli, completely ignoring any attempt to debate your version of history, I can only assume because you knew it was emotional rubbish and inaccurate .

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You derailed the thread on the crash in the Alps with a load of anti-French bigotry, which consisted of downright lies

Is that insulting because I know you dont like that . I invite anyone to go to the thread and read it .

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When Oralboy refers to the Palestinians as vermin, and Gungasnake calls them Palisavages you utter not a word of criticism, yet you have the brass neck to called even the mildest criticism of Israel anti-Semitic.

Thats a fair comment but to tell the truth I tend to speed read what they say . I will try to take them to task in future . But in truth, their language is a product of the lives they lead, your bias is just as strong even if the phrasing is slightly more delicate

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the supporters of Palestinian self determination are reasonable....those of Israeli imperialism are a bunch of raving bigots

You fancy yourself as not biased, but the truth is different .

Your post is full of what you know about other members but I question your honesty here . You speak of a great many people, but I dont think you know why other members do things . You have clearly lost this debate and have resorted to insults whilst protesting how dare anyone insult you . You have dragged other threads into here to distract from losing this thread . I am happy for anyone to engage me in those topics on the other threads, rather than derail this one like you are doing .

For someone who is crying foul over being insulted you sure are throwing around some insults of your own

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stupid... you're a bigot ...anti-French bigotry ...downright lies ...bigotry ....raving nutcase ....bigots ...a bunch of raving bigots .....so stupid .....repulsive behaviour .....

Its an awfully big dictionary isnt it but I'm glad you got to 'B' .

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you went on to a poor-me, bleeding-heart, self-pitying tirade

You really should read some of your own posts . It will be a surprise for you.

That was quite a rant wasnt it . You could have spent the time debating the facts but when you are having an emotional meltdown, well, better to have a lie down and cry isnt it ?

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@izzythepush,

Spot on, Izzy!

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@Ionus,

I see a lot of attempted putdowns but not one word of fact. Are you sure your not a CJ clone?

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@korkamann,

Don't forget that a large number of those Jewish immigrants were European and lived during the Holocaust, but only learned to apply the Nazi lessons to the Palistinian people. But in the Israeli mind Holocaust only applies to Jewish people, not to animals.

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@Ionus,

You of course being dumb as a brick wouldn't have noticed I don't use pals. as a term of bigotry but as an abbreviation. But it covers up your bigotry nicely. I think I am with Izzy. I don't put anyone on ignore, but I sure as hell don't have to read your post's or answer them.

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I fear the truth is the first casulty in arguments such as are occurring here. Events of any kind are most easily understood in retrospect, particularly those in which human behavior is involved. Even there most analysis of historical events, large or small, ignores the real complexity of events, simplifying them into a few condensed central ideas. This is the central technique of historians. Understanding the complexity of current events and making wise forecasts is far more difficult and uncertain.

Understanding the reality of the Middle East and passing judgments relative to Palestinians and Israelis is a particularly complex and difficult affair.

I believe most of us accept that Israel has at least ignored a number of opportunities to do greater justice to the Palestinian people, Christian, Moslem or Druz. Perhaps the chief opportunity was after the 1967 war in which Israel scored an unqualified military victory and found itself in posession of all of what had been known as the West Bank and Gaza. Israel's power and international support were then at a relative peak, and there might have been a chance to form a multi cultural community across Palestine. That would have been hard for most serious Zionists to accept at the time, with their relatively fresh memories of the Holocaust, and, in addition, the historical case for religious tolerance among Moslem nations was (and still is), at best, tenuous. Since that missed opportunity Israel has maintained the separation while absorbing a growing fraction of the former West Bank and, a decade ago, erected a fortified wall separating the peoples -- a constant irritant (or worse).

It is hard to fault the first generation of Jewish Holocaust survivors, who after 1945, found themselves generally unwelcome back in their former homes across Europe - all in the midst of enormous displacements of other peoples as well... Germans, Poles, Czechs and others. Who is to blame for all that?

The cultural and political quagmire that is the Middle East was the creation of Britain and France (and to a lesser extent Russia), which campaigned to wrest control of the region from the Ottoman Empire during and after WWI, and then colonized it, drawing boundaries that defied historical norms around new entities including Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, which they divided amongst themselves -- after having promised autonomy and independence to the Arabs generally, and rule over Palestine to both the Hashemite family, which then ruled Mecca and Medina, and also to European Zionists (and Bankers) ... both events separated by only a few months !! Hard to beat that record for greed and duplicity.

All of these parties rationalize their roles in this sad affair by considering different portions of the history, and excluding their own roles in it. Certainly European forgetfulness in this area is a significant thing.

The unfolding internal warfare in the Moslem world and across the region certainly does not suggest the time is propitious for an Israeli opening to the resident Palestinians. The ravages being done by Sunni and Shia zealots to any not of their ilk make some of the sweeping judgments against Israel found here look a bit silly.

We often pride ourselves in the recent political and judicial creations of the modern world - the UN, international courts and the like. The sad fact is that these institutions are only effective in cases in which the stakes are very low or in which the offending parties are relatively very weak. Beyond that the law of the jungle is still the law of history ---- as in Ukraine, Tibet, and most of the Middle East.

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@georgeob1,

Excellent post .

I approach the Middle East from the point of view of what can we achieve...what is practical . When IS first started I thought it was a good idea because it wanted to redraw the map, which currently has no respect for the people who have a line run across their lives . That turned sour very quickly .

The people of Palestine do suffer, as much from their own leaders as anything . To create a Palestinian State would be to give more power to those who are currently abusing their own people, as well as the problem of Palestinians always scoring high on any Islamist Terrorist approval ratings .

I think the only solution is to move every Palestinian into Jordan or other Arab countries and let them start their lives anew, with proper housing . They currently live in camps or in the Gaza strip which is the number one slum area in the Middle East . Those who argue this is a terrible thing to do would be well advised to think about how many generations will suffer otherwise . Give the Israelis the ancient borders . Siding with the weak, the Palestinians, will only prolong the suffering but some here in the west see that as worth while because it gives them something to focus on, gives their lives purpose otherwise they will have to save whales .

If a Palestinian State is formed, then all the charity they receive may disappear and I dont see the state as economically viable . The easiest to achieve, the best in the long run for Palestinians and the most viable (though still quite difficult) is to give in to the radicals in Israel, like we recently gave Tibet to China, the Crimea to Russia and previously the New World to the Europeans .

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@Ionus,

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I think the only solution is to move every Palestinian into Jordan or other Arab countries and let them start their lives anew

who pays, and will they become citizens of what ever state they are sent to?

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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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