Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

The problem with deflecting attention away from the Israel-Palestine Conflict to the plight of the Syrians and South Sudanese is that it doesn't address the problem that is the Israel-Palestine Conflict and would merely allow it to continue to fester to the detriment of all of the peoples there and around the world that would get caught up in the strife as has happened ever since this conflict commenced.

The problem with demanding that the Palestinians accept the state of Israel as "the state for the Jews" is that it forces them to deny their own rights to Palestine, the land within which the state of Israel was founded. The Zionists must accept the fact that that will never happen and only after they realize this fact and internalize it will peace ever have a chance in this conflict.

"I Won't Serve in Your Army"

by Peretz Kidron

The Progressive magazine, May 2002





One Thousand Israeli reservists have signed declarations that they will not serve in the Occupied Territories. Today, twenty-one of these refuseniks are in military prisons. The Spring IDF (Israel Defense Forces) offensive directed at Palestinian cities and refugee camps has involved the call-up of 31,000 reservists to reinforce the regular conscript units spearheading the attack. A growing number of reservists-well over 500 to date-have honored their signed declarations and notified their commanding officers that they want no part in a military crackdown on a helpless civilian population or in the attendant actions that constitute war crimes. Twenty-one are currently serving prison terms for refusal. More than sixty-five refuseniks have been imprisoned since the beginning of the intifada.

Sergio Yahni and Itai Haviv are two of the refuseniks.

On March 19, Yahni was sentenced to twenty-eight days of detention for refusing reserve duty in the Israeli military. Yahni, co-director of the Alternative Information Center, is a longstanding activist with the Israeli peace group Yesh Gvul. At his trial, he stressed that he won't serve with the IDF in any capacity as long as the occupation is in force. This is a step beyond the usual principle of "selective refusal," whereby refuseniks agree to be delegated to other noncombatant duties unconnected with the occupation.

Following his trial, Yahni set out his objections in an eloquent letter to Defense Minister Benyamin Ben Eliezer:

"An officer for whom you are responsible has sentenced me today to twenty-eight days in military prison for my refusal to serve in reserve duty. I did not refuse only to serve in the Occupied Palestinian Territories-as I have for the past fifteen years. I refused to serve in the Israeli army in any capacity.

"Since 29th September 2000, the Israeli army has waged a 'dirty war' against the Palestinian Authority. This dirty war includes extra-judicial killings, the murder of women and children, the destruction of the economic and social infrastructure of the Palestinian population, the burning of agricultural fields, and the uprooting of trees. You have sowed fear and despair but failed to achieve your ultimate objective; the Palestinian people did not give up their dream of sovereignty and independence. Neither did you provide security for your own people despite all the destructive violence of the army over which you have responsibility.

"In light of your great failure, we are now witness to an intellectual debate amongst Israelis of the worst kind: a discussion about the possible deportation and the mass killing of Palestinians. The failed attempt of leaders of the Labour Party to impose a settlement on the Palestinian people has dragged us into a 'dirty war' for which Palestinians and Israelis are paying with their lives. The racist violence of the Israeli security establishment, who do not see people but only 'terrorists,' has deepened the vicious cycle of violence for both Palestinians and Israelis.

"Israelis are also the victims of this war. They are the victims of the irresponsible and failed aggression of the army over which you are responsible. Even when you waged the most deadly attacks on the Palestinian people, you did not fulfill your duty: giving security to the citizens of Israel. Tanks in Ramallah cannot stop your most monstrous creation: the desperation which explodes in coffee shops. You, and the military officers under your command, have created human beings whose humanity disappears out of desperation and humiliation. You have created this despair and you cannot stop it.

"It is clear to me that you have risked all of our lives only in order to continue building illegal and immoral settlements.... For the past thirty-five years, the settlements have turned the Israeli society into a danger zone. The Israeli state has sowed despair and death both for the Palestinians and Israelis.

"Therefore I will not serve in your army. Your army that calls itself the 'Israeli Defence Force' is nothing more than the armed wing of the settlement movement. This army does not exist to bring security to the citizens of Israel; it exists to guarantee the continuation of the theft of Palestinian land. As a Jew, I am repelled by the crimes this militia commits against the Palestinian people.

"It is both my Jewish and human duty to resolutely refuse to take any part in this army. As the son of a people victim to pogroms and destruction, I cannot be a part of your insane policies. As a human being, it is my duty to refuse to participate in any institution which commits crimes against humanity."

Captain Itai Haviv received a twenty-one-day sentence on March 14 for his act of refusal. Here is his statement, entitled "Black Flag." (The black flag symbolizes the soldier's right to disobey unjust orders.)

"As a combat officer in the IDF, I have served all over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I am not naive. There are times when you must kill in order to survive. On behalf of the state of Israel, I have chased children who threw stones at me. I have patrolled the alleyways of refugee camps. I have banged on their tin doors in the small hours of the morning. I have searched among mattresses for propaganda material. I have heard babies crying. I have hauled people out of bed to erase slogans daubed on walls. I have imposed curfews. I have dealt with Palestinian flags fluttering from power pylons. I have halted vehicles. I have confiscated identity cards. I have conveyed handcuffed prisoners in the back of my jeep. I have fired at rioters. I have halted hundreds of vehicles at roadblocks. I set up an outlook post on the roof of a cake shop in the main street of Gaza. The routine of occupation. Every day. Every hour. Thirty-five years.

"I believed that this was a war of no-choice. After all, we had left no stone unturned in our pursuit of peace.

"We have built over 100 settlements. We have sent 200,000 settlers to live there. We have lost soldiers, children, mothers. All for the sake of the security of the state. For the sake of peace. To stop the next suicide bomber. For thirty-five years, a black flag has flown over our heads, but we refused to see it.

"No more.

"Or, in Hebrew: Yesh Gvul. There is a Limit."



Peretz Kidron is an Israeli writer and journalist who lives in Jerusalem. Kidron has long been active with Yesh Gvul and other Israeli peace and human rights groups. He is a former reservist, among the first to refuse service in the Occupied Territories as far back as the '70s.

Self-hating Jews sure are freaks.

It is regarded as a trump card only by anti-Semites who do not wish their anti-Semitism to be denounced.

Actual human beings, on the other hand, feel that anti-Semitism should be denounced. It's a matter of basic human decency.

Note that not "all" criticism is denounced as anti-Semitism. Only the "blood libel" type of criticism (i.e. falsely accusing Jews of horrendous crimes) is denounced as anti-Semitism.



No, it is because anti-Semitic scum have grown more shrill in their hateful shrieking.



As pointed out above, it is not "any" criticism that is so denounced. Rather only "criticism" that consists of outrageous false accusations gets labeled as anti-Semitism.



Anti-Semites always like to blame their own victims for their anti-Semitic attacks.



Outrageous false accusations against Israel should be inhibited.



Israel is not misbehaving.

See what I mean about outrageous false charges?



It is not against the law for Jews to defend themselves from murdering Palestinians.



More false accusations. Israel is not engaging in reckless behavior.



No, the leading source of anti-Semitism is anti-Semitic scumbags.



How nice. Another self-hating Jew.

It is a nice feeling to have JTT on ignore. I highly recommend this.

While somewhat off topic, Israel has made mighty contributions to the world in medicine and other peaceful pursuits. The USA is a major beneficiary of these contributions.

Israel recently developed techniques that may very well revolutionize medicine. See http://safeshare.tv/w/DTAINyElxY

Says an American living on Native American soil.

The Holocaust survivors (aka, today's "Zionists") were not welcome back in Europe after WWII. In my opinion, the Holocaust changed the calculus of ethical debate. And, Palestineans were not Palestineans during the Ottoman Empire. They were Arabs. In my opinion, Arabs do not like Jews moving into their turf. Oh well. Not much different then the attitude in some parts of the U.S. Oh well.

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, Judaism Online and Be'chol Lashon, Germany is the country with the largest growing Jewish population. (Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent.)
About 15,000 German Jews survived the Nazi-period here in Germany (400,000 lived here in 1933). Between 1945 and 1948, 40,000 Jews lived in Germany. Most of them emigrated to Israel, between 10,000 and 15,000 stayed here. Over the following years, only a few Jews returned: in 1980, about 90,000 lived in Germany. The number then grew due to the immigration of German-Russian Jews to about 250,000 (but "officially, only about 120,000 are registered as Jews).

I don't have the numbers of other countries, since I've only contact to German Jewish institutions.

"Zionists" are defined here by nearly all Jews not like what you say but as someone who supports the idea of a Jewish state.
I'm still friendly Holocaust survivors, went in schools with them - some of them even said, they were "Anti-Zionists". This has been quite common among that generation as well as being "Anti-Socialist": they were assimilated with their German neighbourhood.
Marga Spiegel, who died at the age of 101 a couple of years ago, has been a well known example ... (Her memoirs and the movie Saviors in the Night (Unter Bauern) are quite famous, too.)

I can't read Arabian nor Turkish. So have to rely on English, French and German texts and translations.

As far as I found out, people living in Eretz Yisra'el respectively Terra Sancta were called "Palestineans" by Jews resp Christians. The Ottoman Empire identified people primarily in terms of religion.

Can you give a source from that named time period for your above opinion?

Native Americans have full rights of citizenship in the US.



I don't agree with your opinion. The Holocaust does not justify the Zionists' oppression of the Palestinian peoples.




And this assertion of yours is relevant to what, exactly?



I don't know about that. But I'll take your word, for what it's worth.

What I do know is that those Arabs, much like the other peoples of the world, don't like being oppressed. Their oppressors being Gentile or otherwise notwithstanding.

"Telling the Palestinians they can't murder people" is hardly "oppression".

I only use ignore with people if I find that the only reasonable response to any post they make is retaliatory name-calling.

At least under the current a2k system that is. If the system is changed to encompass that proposed "super ignore" feature, I will have to revise my use of it.

Just what I heard back in the '50's from a family member. That's not a scholarly source; however, back in that day Arab armies were busy attacking Israel, to conquer the country. You remember, the Pan Arabism of Egypt's Nasser. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Arabism

In my mind, after Arab armies realized they were not about to win a military victory over Israel, another tactic had to be deployed to de-legitimate the nation. Thus, I see Palestinean statehood taking the place of Arab armies losing a few wars. Where was Palestinean statehood under the Ottomans? Or, the British Mandate?

Jewish population growth is limited by intermarriage. What Hitler couldn't do with bullets and gas, Christian girls that prefer a Jewish husband are quite effective. It's not just Jewish men that want a Christian wife. However, when Jewish males marry an Asian wife, the children might very well be raised in the Jewish religion. Asian girls might just be the modern version of the Maccabees, to keep Jews from assimilating?

You need not waste your breath replying to my postings, regarding Israel. You have chosen your "team" to root for, and I have mine. Play ball!

Politics is a contest that often appears like a zero sum game. Ask some Mejicanos whose ancestors were in Tejas cuando los Anglos llegaron.

German Jews called those living in "Palestina" (Palestine) "Arabische Juden" (Arabian Jews) - to differ them from the European it is said. (That was pre-Zionism, printed in papers published around 1840/1850.)

They were Turkish, from 1516 until 1918. And lived from 1872 onwards in the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem (Before, directly under Constantinople from 1841; before that, part of the province of Damascus)


Actually, it is impossible to have a statehood under a mandate - mandates didn't have sovereignty/statehood since that's the idea of a mandate.

Between 1924 and 1948, everyone living as a citizen in the mandate territory, got a "Palestinian passport" ( "British passport, Palestine").

Well, you do waste yours replying to mine, so I'll continue to do the same, muchisimas gracias.

By the way the word anglos isn't capitalized in Spanish.

Sorry, my fault. I should have read the sources properly.

The source I've got here ("Der Orient", 1840) an article ("Various notices about the Jewish-Arabian literature) refers to writings by Judeo-Persian Jews and other "Arabs" writing in Judeo-Persian as opposed to those, who wrote "moslemitisch" writings (= Hebrew, literally "Moses-like").

My bad.

You are correct. Holocaust survivors had the opportunity to return to their country, but they're the ones who chose not to return.

From Wiki.


That scenario would be true in any country involved in a war where their home cities were destroyed, and most people chose not to return - not only Jews.

I agree..why would they? They'd had to be naive to trust the system. Most people who endured that cruelty ,simply were not. Many Jews wouldn't even disclosed ethnicity based on country of origin. Who could blame them? The entire powerful world for looked aside while Jews ere exterminated .it wasn't even first page news.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/opinion/not-the-same-old-same-old.html