Why aren't christians deliriously happy?

Hey, Foof!

I don't think we're any more or less happy than anybody else.
Except for me, of course.
I'm freakin' ecstatic.

I find it odd, but perhaps it's just the way I'm wired or something, that we in the western world have come to believe that happiness is not only obtainable, but normal, in that not being happy most of the time is some sort of abnormality. Seems to me that throughout history and throughout the world, what is normal is to meet one's needs (including needs for mental stimulation and blowing off steam) and to fulfill one's social obligations, and feel whatever one is going to feel in the process. When the focus goes to maintaining a state of mind rather than the completion of tangible acts -- I dunno, seems like a trap to me.

Which is what I would expect you to say. And that is fine.

Who says it has to be concrete? Most of us operate believing in things we can't necessarily see, and yet it is evident to most that it is true by actions. We believe history - even though some of that is even questionable - anyone can write a history book and say whatever they want to. I don't put too much faith in anything but what my own conscience tells me is true. My conscience is guided I am sure by what I read, by what I experience and my upbringing. This is the same with most people - which is why there are so many different beliefs.

But my experience in my parents and how they consistently showed others love and compassion, their example and their love of Scripture and Christ, certainly molded my own belief. This is not a bad way to be. Whether you believe it is based on something concrete or not - that is a pretty sure foundation to raise a child on. I am not sorry for it and it does cause me to be more optimistic than most.

I am still learning.

When I first came to A2k...I was appalled at how many hate and believe Christians are complete idiots. There are very few here that believe the way I do - and yet - there are amazing and lovely people here. I have been nothing but bettered by my time here. I do believe I have a better world view and am more balanced in how I see things. But in all the debates I have read - there has been nothing that swayed me from what I believe. Whether others believe it is foolish or not matters not to me. Like I said before - it just is what it is.

"In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

-- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651

Well I can't express my happiness that your faith works for you without sounding really patronising (tried a few times) but I hope you get that I mean it.
I too love a2k. I've had my thoughts reshaped and re-moulded so many times it is a truly amazing resource.

The thing that strikes me about your faith which is a paradox I can't get is the fact that you seem so open about it, your view seems to be very subjective...yet surely the fact that you believe in it means that it is TRUTH, not just 'something that works for you.'
I don't hate christians and I think being narrowly atheist is equal to being narrowly religious, and likewise although it is fun to debate and when I do so I can appear rude, I don't object to christians being more intolerant of my beliefs than I am of theirs since they are in a completely different position to me- by the nature of what they believe they have to believe it in an objective manner.
Not all beliefs are equal or compatible. They do not have the same core 'essence.'

Patiodog, thanks for that. I feel like a retard because I had honestly never thought of that before.
Religions are idealist, constantly working 'towards,' but with a anchor in everyday life.
Total ideologies.

I don't think Hobbes received National Geographic...

Not sure I said anything, PQ, but if you got something from it, you're welcome to it.

No it just got me thinking how in religion the optimum is always the 'path to happiness, knowledge, completion etc.'
When I went to sunday school the sunday school teacher told us that we all have a hole inside us, some choose to fill it with money, other religions, ambition etc. but the right way to fill it was with jesus.
I mean I've thought for a long time the hole is just part of being human. Aristotle defined happiness as the completion of small achievable goals.

I suppose religions are often a format of this. A code of practice that makes you feel satisfied in knowing you are 'doing the right thing,' (and generally a positive one opposed to alcoholism or drugs or hate or whatever). The total complete fulfillment advertised is never actually 'attained' it is just sailed towards.
Like ideology 'we will be a great nation again...' or whatever. Total idealism, but a lot more fulfilling to live by than 'well, we'll begin by making a small amendment to clause....' even if it's more practical.
I mean you don't get crowds rallied with that. Crowds are rallied by the promise of immanent paradise.
Likewise, with religion- mind frame.

The fact is - I can offer it to you - it is TRUTH to me - but I can't make you believe it. I can give you information, I can tell you where to go to find more information - but quite honestly - there are some who just won't accept it. It does them no good for me to rant on about it. If your heart and mind is moved to believe - you will. If not - then it is not truth to you and whether it really is true or not, does not matter to you. I can't make you believe. So I will "live in my own deluded world". I am happy enough doing that - even though I have heard plenty of reasons why others believe it is not true.

If we were sitting down face to face then I could answer specific questions and would be glad to. You could see my heart by my delivery I believe. Explaning specifics in word just seems to cause hard feelings. That is not my desire at all.

I see why most think Christians are nuts, I don't blame them - when I hear other religions and how they worship I think the same thing - which has taught me to be kinder in my view of others. Somebody has to be wrong. But I believe in my heart that what I believe is true. That is enough for me.

I meant in written word - don't want anyone to think I belong to some strange sect that interfaces by using thought waves or something. Heh. Sorry - couldn't resist.

I knew you were going to say that.

I am pretty predictable.

Not at all.

George is in the same sect, see
By which I don't mean sexy.

(See, the written word has it's place...)

to be sure -

clarification is good, cause I thought that's what you meant.

couldnae pass up the homonymous rhym

I will say this one thing, Mismi: Those of us who are not Christian...and indeed are not religious in any way...those of us who are agnostic or atheistic...

...we can certainly do with a reminder that charity and concern for our fellow human beings (which, of course, includes the religious ones) is something reasonable to expect...and reasonable to give.

No need for any gods or GODS to tell us that a bit of humility goes a long way...and that even when someone flashes out at us, striking back is not the only option--and often not the best option.

We all have got to learn to get along.

Nice to know there are decent, reasonable people who are parts of so many diverse orientations and philosophies of life.

That's one of the things that makes A2K such a great place to visit.

I thought that was that you are predictably pretty . . .

You are right Frank - we all need to be reminded sometimes...and it is so easy to get defensive at times. It is good to remember that we are here together for a reason - learning what we can and are willing to from each other is a profitable and enjoyable way to spend time.

Set - you smooth talker you.