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Israeli airstrikes in Gaza kill more than 200

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:31 pm
@Foofie,
Israel should want to help build a stable and cultured Palestine out of self interest, to end the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The Arabs can and will help when it is plausible that the money will go to stuff that will not be bombed by Israel, to stuff the promotes peace in the region. Europe will help as well. The Israeli money would act as seed money, it is not like they need to do the heavy lifting themselves.

This could have been done though the PLO, but they were too corrupt to allow for it. Currently the Palestinians are too fractured to organize the building effort and I don't know how it would get done. I have in the past argued that it would be the Arab league, with Jordan in control of the effort.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:46 pm
That of course would be a sensible approach: I find it weird that no-one ever criticises Israel for its policy of blowing up settlements it abandons. I mean it makes no economic sense.
I find the idea of a two state solution evil: the only historical precedent I can think of for it is the herding of Native Americans into reservations; 100 years later this is viewed as theft and genocide.
One of the reasons israel can behave in such an arrogant way is that it is bank rolled by America: it receives more aid than any other country: more than the whole continent of Africa.
Europe has called for a cease fire. The Israelis ignored this. It seems they want to keep the slaughter going.
No state can decide on a neighbours government. It just feeds resentment
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:48 pm
This article is out of date: the death toll is now nearer 400. Does anyone want a sweepstake on how many more murders the Israeli government will commit?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:56 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
the Israelis claim that 80% of the deaths are combatants, that the other 20% is unavoidable collateral damage. Then again, Israel claims the Police as targets so we know what to make of the 80% figure...
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 09:06 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

This article is out of date: the death toll is now nearer 400. Does anyone want a sweepstake on how many more murders the Israeli government will commit?


Is it possible the 400 count reflects a concept of proportionality that includes the 200 U.S marines killed in their barracks? Why does proportionality have to include just Israelis vs. Palestineans? The Israelis may have an ethical right to include U.S. military casualties as part of any proportionality calculation, seeing as how the U.S. has been an ally of Israel, since its inception. I personally would include the losses of 9/11, seeing how NYC is such an icon of Jewish American life.

Sort of like when the U.S. was fighting with Britain in WWII. No one questioned that both armies were fighting in parallel efforts. Notice how the world seems, in my mind, to want to isolate Israel ethically and morally.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 09:27 pm
I'm talking absolutes: murder of civilians by dropping bombs on them is wrong: There is no evidence to suggest that any of the people killed by the bombs were involved in the attacks in Lebanon> I would say it was probably unlikely: on the grounds that most hadn't been born then.
This is not revenge, it is not justice. It is genocide. As long as you do not condemn murder you cannnot hold any moral ground at all. If the Israelis read the Old testament there is a commandment that reads thoult shalt not Kill.
It does not have sub clauses. Murder is wrong.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 09:40 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

I'm talking absolutes: murder of civilians by dropping bombs on them is wrong: There is no evidence to suggest that any of the people killed by the bombs were involved in the attacks in Lebanon> I would say it was probably unlikely: on the grounds that most hadn't been born then.
This is not revenge, it is not justice. It is genocide. As long as you do not condemn murder you cannnot hold any moral ground at all. If the Israelis read the Old testament there is a commandment that reads thoult shalt not Kill.
It does not have sub clauses. Murder is wrong.


There are no absolutes when you do not address the intimidation of having rockets sent against Israel's civilians.

The Gazans freely elected Hamas. Hamas will not recognize Israel's right to exist. Hamas therefore believes it is their prerogative to send rockets onto Israeli civilian targets. Therefore, there is a certain collective culpability of all Gazans .

So, while Israel targets military targets, the civilian Gazan casualties do have a degree of culpability, I believe, since they did want Hamas (knowing that Hamas has an intransigent attitude towards Israel).

Yes, murder is wrong. Wrong when it is done by one civilian against another civilian. Here we have military. The military may not come under the rubric of thou shalt not kill (when it is part of a military conflict against an enemy).

You seem to be looking for objective morality, when it seems to be subjective morality that continues the conflict. But, you are entitled to your opinion. So am I.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 01:53 am
I thought Iraq was responsible for 9-11 hence the invasion? Or was it Afghanistan? You now blame Hamas for 9-11: the 200 Americans were killed by Hezbullah, a completely distinct organisation, and that was in Lebanon. Perhaps you can get people to confess to this by locking them up and torturing them for 7 years: as in Guantanamo Bay.
There are certain standards that a country should adhere to. Not invading and bombing its neighbours is a start.
Israel denies the right of Palestine to exist: The land on which Israel stands was stolen by force from its rightful owners. Without compensation. It is this basic injustice that has fuelled all the conflict.
This is compounded by the fact that Israel will not negotiate with anyone. It dismisses anyone who objects to having their land stolen as a terrorist or millitant. You have a right to your views: but not when you are using racist arguments to back genocide.
You still haven't told me how bombing a university helps.
I think that stopping the killing is a good place to start on the road to peace. Remember the roadmap? Bush's big con? Nothing came of it.

Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 03:55 pm
FKN News video: Death in Gaza 2 Easy

Here are Tonight's Headlines. As the Sixth day of Israeli bombing of Gaza gets underway, international outrage grows at the number of innocent men, women and children dieing so easily at the hands of the poor, desperate, peaceful Israeli nation. Four hundred Palestinians have willfully, maliciously, and purposefully died compared to only four Israelis. UN officials have called for a cease fire to allow Israel to re-arm and give mediators time to talk to Palestinians into dieing a bit harder. Israel has refused to allow aid or journalists into Gaza for fear it would cause more indiscriminate dieing and independent description of their genocide to be broadcast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg_4o6sCD_E
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 05:17 pm
In fact Israel says It's bombing is so ineffecient that no damage has been caused. In fact the bombs are actually promoting peace. Despite suggestions from the rest of the world that Israel stop the slaughter and find something more constructive to do, the bombing continues.
There is no hardship being caused according to Israeli sources. The U.N. disagree.
Israel is a threat to peace and has invaded its neighbours. It also has WMD. Perhaps the Americans should invade.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 05:23 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
I think the extent of the damage & harm done might become clearer soon, now that the Israeli supreme court has ruled that (limited) access to outside journalists can now occur in Gaza. Despite the objections of the Israeli government.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 05:26 pm
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/revealing-silence-at-the-gaza-egypt-border/

Quote:

At about 1:10 on Sunday, December 28, 2008, the BBC anchor Peter Dobbie found out, along with his audience, that there were 40 Egyptian ambulances ready to evacuate wounded, and lorries full of medical goods sent by Qatar to restock Gazan hospitals, waiting at the border crossing in Egypt. (According to another source there were also 50 Egyptian doctors ready to go into the Strip to help.) Since Dobbie and his audience had heard the repeated complaint from the people in Gaza that the hospitals were overwhelmed by the injured and desperately lacking in supplies, one would have expected the border to be full of purposeful activity. Instead, nothing was happening. The Gazan side lay silent.

A real journalist, someone with a smell for revealing anomalies, would have immediately recognized this as an important story to follow up on. After all, Dobbie had not hesitated to interrupt and challenge Israeli spokesmen on precisely the issues at stake: the disproportion between Israeli-caused fatalities and Israeli-suffered fatalities, the inevitable suffering of innocent civilians when such a bombing campaign takes place in so densely populated an area. “The math doesn’t work,” said Dobbie, implying what commentators emphasized elsewhere " the “disproportionate use of force” the Israelis were employing.

So here was a perfect issue with which to challenge Hamas spokesmen: If they were so distraught at the loss of life of their own people, why didn’t they take care of them? What on earth would possess Hamas not to avail themselves of what they pleadingly told the world they so desperately needed? As the honest and courageous Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey put it, “My head hurts.”

Alas, the BBC did nothing of the sort. The next six hours saw nothing but canned footage repeating Palestinian complaints, voiced not only by Hamas spokesmen and BBC reporters, but UN officials like Chris Gunning and human rights advocates, and, of course, others in the Western MSM.

Indeed, one might characterize the basic “frame” of the MSM Gaza story: Israeli Goliath creates Palestinian David humanitarian crisis. Four out of five stories tell this story in one way or another, including the interviews with Israeli officials asking them to justify their deed. (Ironically, that’s about the ratio of Hamas men to civilian casualties in the first days.)

Too bad. Had the BBC behaved like real journalists instead of parroting Palestinian narratives, they might have taken the “golden” (read excremental) thread that leads out of the labyrinth and straight to the “real story.” That story, of course, is the dreadful Palestinian strategy, taken to new heights by Hamas in the early 21st century " play the victim card at any cost. In this case, create a genuine humanitarian crisis.

Hamas initially offered two reasons for not allowing the wounded out: 1) the roads were too dangerous to venture out on, and 2) they were composing a list of the wounded. Both of these are just the kind of lame excuse that, had they been voiced by Israeli spokesmen, the BBC interviewers would have jumped all over them. Israelis have targeted only military and government sites; no ambulances have been hit and the roads are full of cars bringing wounded (past cameras) to hospitals. As for making up a list of 600 wounded before evacuating any, surely you must be kidding.

Then Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, speaking to Khaled Abu Toameh, denied the Egyptian allegation that Hamas was to blame, “claiming that many of the wounded rejected an Egyptian offer to receive medical treatment in Cairo in protest against Cairo’s ‘support’ for the IDF operation. He accused the Egyptians of taking part in the ’siege’ on the Gaza Strip by refusing to reopen the Rafah crossing.” Hamas even delivered before the cameras a group of “family members” who claimed they refused to let their wounded go because of their anger at Egypt’s behavior. On the contrary, as Ma’an News Agency reported, Hamas would allow no passage of wounded until the border was completely open.

More hollow claims. Gazans don’t hesitate to accept medical aid from the Israelis, the people who in their minds actually inflict the wounds. So why not take Egyptian aid? And of the 600 wounded (according to Palestinian sources) all of them, suffering in a ludicrously crowded and understaffed hospital, refused to go to Egypt?.....
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 07:13 pm
As I said the Israeli air force should stop dropping bombs: they are obviously not hurting anyone. They are not doing any damage: The 400 dead are just seeking publicity. It is all their fault. Obviously the European Union are calling for a cease fire for no reason. The UN too.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 08:40 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

You still haven't told me how bombing a university helps.


I am only guessing, but perhaps it prevents it from being a target by the Israelis at a later date, when students are there? Sort of preventive humane bombing.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 01:40 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
....preventive humane bombing.


What?

Talk about clutching at straws!
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 02:11 am
I thought preventative humane bombing was a satirical remark. Surely not even an American could mean it.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 02:35 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Can't say for certain, Fountofw ....

Doesn't sound all that much different to "collatoral damage", or "friendly fire", (& etc, etc, etc) to me. The folks who used those ridiculous terms to mask atrocities weren't exactly being satirical.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 02:45 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

I'm talking absolutes: murder of civilians by dropping bombs on them is wrong: There is no evidence to suggest that any of the people killed by the bombs were involved in the attacks in Lebanon> I would say it was probably unlikely: on the grounds that most hadn't been born then.
This is not revenge, it is not justice. It is genocide. As long as you do not condemn murder you cannnot hold any moral ground at all. If the Israelis read the Old testament there is a commandment that reads thoult shalt not Kill.
It does not have sub clauses. Murder is wrong.


Was British bombing of German civilians during WWII morally wrong?
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 04:25 am
Was British bombing of German civilians during WWII morally wrong?

Yes: the British Bomber High Command have admitted this: Their argument was this : during time of war they could hardly pack up when infantry and navy were being killed. They admit it did nothing to shorten the war. They wanted to do their bit. After the War all the commanders were honoured: except "bomber" Harris,head of bomber command.
When the war ended and the United Nations was formed, including a World Court. Bombing of civilians is officially a war crime. As Are collective punishments. Of course, countries which have no respect for law, Including the U.S. and Israel didn't sign up for this.
The American bombing of Dresden did nothing to shorten the War, it was considered the greatest massacre in History.Read Slaughterhouse 5.

I also point out that America did nothing to stop Hitler: it was Pearl harbour that bought the U.S. into the war. The were the first country to introduce immigration controls: primarily so they could help Hitler persecute the Jews.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 04:39 am
@georgeob1,
I disagree: I believe America will support Israel unconditionally. You notice how the church groups (usually so noisy) have been silent. I have to share some shame because of the cowardly actions of my own government.
I can't believe that neither Britain or the US have actually comdemned Israel. Or asked them to stop.
0 Replies
 
 

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