is all human action motivated by self-interest?

Tags: Philosophy, Society, Altruism, Semantics
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cicerone imposter wrote:

You're throwing in the mix something not intended by the first issue of giving; $5 is $5 and we weren't talking about bogus. It was about the intent of the giver whether in good or bad spirit; the value to the recipient does not change.

The intent of the giver is relevant in all situations. That was my point.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm not sure I would say that someone who gave money to a robber would be acting under the same intent as someone who did to a beggar.

I concur. That was the point I was trying to make.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's the intention of the act that matters, not the act itself.

I think they both matter.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, no; the words 'I know what will cheer me up' kinda give that one away.

Isn't that sort of situation more common that you're willing to admit? Maybe people don't actually say "I know what will cheer me up" before they perform some charitable act, but isn't that a likely motivation for some?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Instead, let us say that you leave food sitting outside your door, b/c you know that there are starving families living in your neighborhood that you see on your street from time to time. You don't know if they are taking it or not, and you don't make an effort to know; you are simply putting it out there in case someone needs it. That's altruism to me, an act or situation in which you don't know if you are making a difference or not, but acting for the sake of committing good acts. Some would argue that the feeling you get from this negates altruism, but I dunno. It somehow would lack the certainty that comes from knowing you are helping someone.

Scenario No. 1: Donor hands a $100 bill to a beggar.
Scenario No. 2: Donor drops a $100 bill on the street, hoping that a beggar picks it up. Instead, the bill is washed down a sewer grate.

In your estimation, Donor only acts altruistically in the second scenario?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm also surprised that nobody has brought up the classic: jumping on a grenade. Difficult to argue that sacrificing one's life leads to enjoyment that you 'did the right thing' afterward. Things start devolving into variations of what you would have wanted and is that some sort of pre-emptive enjoyment on your part...

To be sure, it's hard to contend that someone is acting in self interest in that situation -- but not impossible. And if you start to argue that no one commits suicide out of self interest, then you're left with arguing that every suicide is an altruistic act.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

. . . And if you start to argue that no one commits suicide out of self interest, then you're left with arguing that every suicide is an altruistic act.

Without wishing to argue for that idea, i would point out that in the case of some individuals, that might be the effect, for whatever the intent.

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@Setanta,

in the case of the person who jumps on a grenade, you could say that he acted in such a way because he did not want to feel the pain of knowing that all his comrades died, and before he actually does jump on the grenade he could think to himself that after his death he will be seen as a hero in his comrade’s eyes. Therefore, in this case he would be doing it out of self-interest.

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@existential potential,

My response to Joe was a wry comment, on how altruistic it would be for some people (perhaps even a great many people) to commit suicide, the altruism arising from how much better off the rest of us would be without them.

It was in the nature of humor . . . a sense of which, i suspect you lack.

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@existential potential,

existential potential wrote:

in the case of the person who jumps on a grenade, you could say that he acted in such a way because he did not want to feel the pain of knowing that all his comrades died, and before he actually does jump on the grenade he could think to himself that after his death he will be seen as a hero in his comrade’s eyes. Therefore, in this case he would be doing it out of self-interest.

You could say that, but that's something of a stretch.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

how is that a "stretch"? and in any case, one cannot determine what goes through the mind of the individual in order to determine whether his actions truly were altruistic or self-inerested.

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@existential potential,

As it is undeniable that "one cannot determine what goes on through the mind of the individual," doesn't that render this whole discussion moot? You or I can claim that an act -- any act, no matter how seemingly altruistic -- is really an act of self-interest, even selfishness, since that claim cannot be contradicted by contrary evidence. We are doing no more than expressing our opinions here.

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@Merry Andrew,

Whether it's giving or committing suicide, it's always based on self-interest. That's a fact.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Whether it's giving or committing suicide, it's always based on self-interest. That's a fact.

I beg to differ, old friend. That's your opinion. Smile

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@Merry Andrew,

Please argue the points how you "differ."

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@cicerone imposter,

I quite possible that a person could kill themselves because they thought that, by doing so, they would be doing the world a favour.

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@existential potential,

That's still a "personal" decision; doesn't matter what others think about doing the world a favor.

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@cicerone imposter,

I differ with your claim that "that's a fact." Everything that's been posted on this thread has been in the form of the poster's opinion. It has been alleged that we cannot know for certain what a person is thinking or feeling when that person commits what appears to us to be a "selfless" act. That being the case, we cannot state any facts about the person's motivation. We don't know what they're thinking or feeling. (Btw, I think you're probably quite right. Ain't gonna argue about that. But it's not a proveable or demonstrable "fact".)

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@existential potential,

Existential Potential wrote:

is all human action motivated by self-interest?

That depends almost entirely about how you choose to define the term "self-interest". When patriots make sacrifices for the benefit of their country, or friends make them for friends, some people define that as altruism. Others say that they acted in their self-interest -- that for the agents, any pleasures from instant gratification would be outweighed by the warm, fuzzy feeling they could get by practicing their patriotism of friendship. Once you've defined your terms, there is nothing left to reason about, and the answer to your question becomes trivial.

I might change my mind if you could show me how your distinction between self-interest and altruism would affect practical differences in people's behavior. But until my mind is so changed, I maintain this is a question of semantics and nothing else.

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@Merry Andrew,

The "fact" that the individual takes any action is self-motivated whether it's the right or wrong choice, and for whatever reason they chose to arrive at their decision.

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I have to agree with Thomas here. It's what I meant when I wrote that , given the privacy of one's thoughts and feelings, the question is moot. We are, indeed, arguing about semantics here. I would also suggest that not only "we" can't know another person's motivation but that frequently the other person does not really "know" what his/her motivation is. In the example used above of the person falling onto a live grenade to save the lives of some buddies, there is insufficient time to reason things out. I suggest that the person who does that act, does so on an almost instinctive, reflexive level. What the deeper emotional motivation might (or might not) be would require extensive post-mortem psychoanalysis.

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Humans are sentient living things. Our actions are indirectly directed by an interest to help ourselves, even if the action applies to helping others. We share an uncontrollable kinesthetic force which drives this world into succession and progress. This self-interest is not an immoral act if it causes no harm to another persons self-esteem. The human body was already adjured to contain and produce endorphins, the hormone released to bring happiness. Only self-desire for pleasure enables the endorphins to be released and raise the mood of an individual. The act of you writing this post was preceded with a desire to recieve a response. Self-desire in my opinion is something which is innate and uncontrollable; even if it's a desire to end all desires. Desire is imperishable.

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@slyzubair,

Am I to assume that the individual's actions are first to help ourselves and the outcome that happens to help others are secondary in all cases? The motivation can be right or wrong, and also the benefit or wrong done to the other(s) is really moot?

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@cicerone imposter,

I suggest that "motivated action" is self-serving by defintion. This may apply to both altruistic and non-altruistic behavior. The problem here is the nature of the self.

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is all human action motivated by self-interest?

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