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Sun 9 Nov, 2008 05:46 am
Why on earth would you justify and reinforce to others the beliefs of people who think killing other people is good...by killing them?
I know plenty of you will just say "oh, Capital Punishment isn't killing people, no,no, no...it's Justice and Righteousness and An Eye For An Eye and plenty of other Noble Sentiments With Capital Letters...and besides, only innocent people get murdered, guilty people Pay Their Debt to Society"
The way I see it, the death toll from the Bali bombings just increased by 3.
Recently they expressed how much they looked forward to becoming martyrs and hoped their executions would inspire many others to do the same.
Despite our Australian Governments long held opposition to CP, our local media is reporting the news with an air of celebration and success, the glee makes me sick.
I know I'm ranting, but I'm angry and I don't care.
@Eorl,
What about the idea of killing 100,000,000 people needlessly for the greater glory of Gaea ? That bother you much or any at all??
http://junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html
@Eorl,
Quote:Recently they expressed how much they looked forward to becoming martyrs and hoped their executions would inspire many others to do the same...
You're right, just killing the fuckers isn't enough; you have to do what Gen. Pershing did and grind whatever is left of them up with the bodies of two or three pigs, publicly, so that the entire world can see that they never get to slammite paradise.
@gungasnake,
and them make into strips and fry 'em up and eat them with your eggs...so the world can see your god eats theirs...right oinkasnakkke?
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:
Why on earth would you justify and reinforce to others the beliefs of people who think killing other people is good...by killing them?
I know plenty of you will just say "oh, Capital Punishment isn't killing people, no,no, no...it's Justice and Righteousness and An Eye For An Eye and plenty of other Noble Sentiments With Capital Letters...and besides, only innocent people get murdered, guilty people Pay Their Debt to Society"
The way I see it, the death toll from the Bali bombings just increased by 3.
Recently they expressed how much they looked forward to becoming martyrs and hoped their executions would inspire many others to do the same.
Despite our Australian Governments long held opposition to CP, our local media is reporting the news with an air of celebration and success, the glee makes me sick.
I know I'm ranting, but I'm angry and I don't care.
Punishment serves the purpose of enforcing the law. Without enforcement, there is no law. Normally, a penalty has three purposes:
1. A personal deterrent
This is to convince the criminal not to commit more crimes.
Obviously, this one doesn't apply here.
2. A societal deterrent
To convince others not to commit this type of crime.
3. To remove the criminal from society.
Capital punishment removes someone from society permanently. A sentence of life without parole does the same, although there is some chance that the prisoner would find some way to get out, e.g. escaping. In general, when one gives a death sentence, one is saying that a criminal is so evil and dangerous that society just wants him out and doesn't want to go to any further trouble dealing with him.
Why do you believe that capital punishment is wrong? You haven't said.
There is absolutely no reliable evidence that capital punishment deters crime. Crimes of violence are usually committed as an act of passion, in which rationality has no place. Otherwise, criminals do not set out to commit crimes in the belief that they will be apprehended--there would be little point in pursuing a life of crime if you believe you are personally not competent to succeed.
I can think of few things more ludicrous, Brandon, than your three claims above. Upon what basis do you allege that deterrence works? I rather think Lincoln's dictum that locks are only good to keep honest men honest is the most acute observation on this topic.
@Brandon9000,
Quote:3. To remove the criminal from society.
Capital punishment removes someone from society permanently. A sentence of life without parole does the same, although there is some chance that the prisoner would find some way to get out, e.g. escaping. In general, when one gives a death sentence, one is saying that a criminal is so evil and dangerous that society just wants him out and doesn't want to go to any further trouble dealing with him.
Brandon, that's a bunch of hogwash!
The U.S. or I should say the majority of states, who still obey by capital punishment have more often a higher crime rate than other states who don't.
Despite capital punishment, the U.S. has the highest crime rate of any civilized country, have you ever asked yourself why that is?
Criminals are hardly ever deterred by capital punishment, terrorists
even less so. You, resp. we as society haven't gained an ounce in fighting crime by executing the perpetrator.
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
There is absolutely no reliable evidence that capital punishment deters crime. Crimes of violence are usually committed as an act of passion, in which rationality has no place. Otherwise, criminals do not set out to commit crimes in the belief that they will be apprehended--there would be little point in pursuing a life of crime if you believe you are personally not competent to succeed.
I can think of few things more ludicrous, Brandon, than your three claims above. Upon what basis do you allege that deterrence works? I rather think Lincoln's dictum that locks are only good to keep honest men honest is the most acute observation on this topic.
It seems logical that people are less likely to commit an act when they stand a good chance of being punished than when they do not, and that the more severe and probably the punishment, the more of a deterrent it is.
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:3. To remove the criminal from society.
Capital punishment removes someone from society permanently. A sentence of life without parole does the same, although there is some chance that the prisoner would find some way to get out, e.g. escaping. In general, when one gives a death sentence, one is saying that a criminal is so evil and dangerous that society just wants him out and doesn't want to go to any further trouble dealing with him.
Brandon, that's a bunch of hogwash!
The U.S. or I should say the majority of states, who still obey by capital punishment have more often a higher crime rate than other states who don't.
Despite capital punishment, the U.S. has the highest crime rate of any civilized country, have you ever asked yourself why that is?
Criminals are hardly ever deterred by capital punishment, terrorists
even less so. You, resp. we as society haven't gained an ounce in fighting crime by executing the perpetrator.
First of all, the part of my post which you quoted wasn't about deterrence. It was about capital punishment as a means of removing a dangerous person from society permanently.
Secondly, please provide some reference to back up your claim that the US has the highest crime rate of any civilized country, because I don't think that it does.
Additionally, there are many factors which influence crime rates, and the effectiveness of the criminal justice system is only one. Some countries may have lower crime rates by virtue of having fewer freedoms. China comes to mind as an example. The point is that you cannot assume that a higher crime rate is completely ascribable to the effectiveness of the scheme of punishments.
It seems intuitively obvious that many people will be less likely to perform an act when the believe that punishment will be probable and severe.
@Brandon9000,
The fact that it "seems logical" to you does not mean that it is, in fact, logical. Or correct.
Do you have anything to back you position other than your personal opinion?
@Brandon9000,
Quote:It seems logical...
Quote:It seems intuitively obvious...
Hi Brandon,
As someone who at one time supported capital punishment for these same reasons... that it "should" work as a deterrent ... I've come full circle to accept that it does not. There are innumerable studies on crime statistics that definitively show that capital punishment is not a deterrent. I can post the data but each of us has a bias as to which data we accept and which we refute. Google "capital punishment deterrent statistics" and take your pick. The bottom line is that those who will commit a heinous act will do so whether there is a potential death sentence awaiting them or not.
At one time I also clung to the concept that at least my tax dollars weren't going towards keeping someone alive who doesn't deserve to live and that execution was cheaper than supporting them for life. No such deal... capital cases by definition are more expensive than non-capital cases from the outset to the point that by the time a convicted criminal is executed the cost has far exceeded the cost of his/her incarceration for life.
And then there is the case where the innocent is executed in the name of justice. Have you ever seen the movie, "The Thin Blue Line"? I highly recommend it. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is all it takes to find oneself on death row. This is NOT a scenario that I want the State taking on on my behalf.
Do some people deserve to die? Maybe. But not at my hands and I am the State, as are you. State sanction executions bloody my hands and yours. Maybe you can sleep at night with the guilt of executing an innocent person in the name of justice but I cannot.
So, instead of responding directly to Eorl's post, we're going to do a thread on the efficacy of capital punishment here instead? Okay, I'm game.
There are two major arguments against capital punishment, without even taking into consideration any moral or ethical issues (those tend to be subjective anyway).
1. Despite Brandon's contention that killing the perp discourages other would-be perps, it has been shown time and again that judicial homicide apparently doesn't deter anybody. If capital punishment really made a would-be killer think twice, wouldn't it seem logical that the states which practice this method of "deterrence" would have lower capital crime rates than states which do not? Look at the stats. People get murdered all the time in Florida and Texas, two states which have the highest rate of executions in this country. California ditto. Massachusetts, which has no capital punishment statute and does not put criminals to death (any more), certainly doesn't have a higher murder rate. If we're talking about executions as punishment, there are people who'd rather get themselves executed and have it over and done with, rather than face the terrifying prospect of spending the remainder of their lives locked up in a cell.
2. Capital punishment is irreversible. And wrongful convictions are rife. There have been numerous cases of people wrongly convicted of crimes they did not commit. In Illinois the situation was so bad that a few years back (I'm sure you'll all remember) the governor of the state suspended all scheduled executions by executive order, pending a review of all capital cases. It seems too many innocent people were being sentenced to death and the fact of their innocence was being established only after the mistake had been made. Too late to rectify the mistake except by making a multi-million $$$ settlement to the bereaved family. No matter what one thinks of the US courts and the judicial system in general, I think it will be hard to deny that judges, juries and prosecutors are only human. As such, they are prone to make mistakes. If the mistake a non-lethal one, it can be rectified. But, as I said, capital punishment is irreversible. (And please, Brandon or anyone else, don't tell me it's possible to ensure that no innocent person will be found guilty. I tell you, people are human. Trust me on this.)
For me, it seems passing strange that we try to convince the population at large that killing people is wrong by -- as Eorl pointed out -- killing people.
As for the Bali terrorist execution, my only objection to it is that those people got their wish -- they were created martyrs. (I doubt very much that GungaSickkkie's proposed solution would act as any kind of a deterrent to would-be suiciders either.) Other than that, I don't think of their death sentence as "punishment." Think of it more as euthanasia. People who are so emotionally ill that they actually believe they are doing God's work by killing other people probably are incurable. So we put them to sleep. Without prejudice.
@CalamityJane,
Quote:Criminals are hardly ever deterred by capital punishment, terrorists
even less so. You, resp. we as society haven't gained an ounce in fighting crime by executing the perpetrator.
In the case of terrorists like the vermin we're discussing here, killing them is the least you can get by with, i.e. an absolute minimum. Keeping them alive puts innocent people in danger of being kidnapped and held hostage in attempts to force their release. Killing them at least tells the world something like Hey, we don't make any deals or play any games with the kinds of assholes who perpetrate this ****.
@JPB,
Hadn't seen your post, JPB, when I typed mine, above. You were probably posting as I was typing.
I fully agree with you, of course. Glad you mentioned the fact that it costs more to execute a prisoner than to simply lock him/her up for the rest of their natural lives. The major reason for this, as I understand it, is the mandatory appeals process which has become universal. (And I'm damned glad that it has.)
@Merry Andrew,
Well spoken, Andrew and JPB.
Additionally what has been said in your posts, I have difficulties to understand the reasons singling out certain kinds of crime as deserving of death.
To my understanding, legitimizing the very behaviour that the law seeks to repress - namely killing - capital punishment is counterproductive in the moral message it conveys.
The alternative sanctions of life or longterm imprisonment are as draconian (Dracon was the Athenian lawgiver whose harsh legal code punished both trivial and serious crimes in Athens with death [7th century BC].)
@Walter Hinteler,
Hammurabi made Draco look like a bleeding heart liberal.
@Merry Andrew,
They got their wish all right. The martyr thing.
Some will guess this is coincidence. I tend to doubt it.
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