reported speech

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"My birthday fell on last Friday," said Jack.
If the above is reported, which verb should I use?

Jack said that his birthday fell/had fallen on the previous Friday.

I think I should use 'fell'. Am I correct?

Many thanks.

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[+1] - cicerone imposter - 10/18/2008My birthday was last Friday.
[+1] - Shapeless - 10/19/2008[quote]I think I should use 'fell'. Am I correct?[/quote] Yes. The past perfect, "had fallen," would be appropriate if you wanted to indicate that one event happened before another...
[+1] - contrex - 10/19/2008In his reported speech, there are two events. Most recently, Jack saying something, and before that, his birthday. Jack said that his birthday had fallen on the previous Friday.
[+1] - Shapeless - 10/19/2008[b]Jack said[/b] is the phrase that announces that events are about to be reported and needn't be chronologically positioned against the events that are actually reported. Using the past perfect...
[+1] - contrex - 10/19/2008Sorry, Shapeless, but that's the way I was taught in English class, here in England.
[+1] - Shapeless - 10/19/2008Discrepancies happen. I can't remember how it was taught to me in school (in the U.S.), but it seems to me that in reported speech the actual act of reporting is understood to exist on a different...
[+1] - JTT - 10/19/2008[quote]Contrex: In his reported speech, there are two events. Most recently, Jack saying something, and before that, his birthday. Jack said that his birthday had fallen on the previous...
[+1] - contrex - 10/19/2008[quote]Is it the choice of the verb "fall on" in this specific situation?[/quote] "My birthday was last week: it fell on a Friday this year." is better. Christmas falls on a...
[+1] - OmSigDAVID - 10/19/2008[quote] making the [color=#FF0000][size=150][b]past perfect unnecessary [/b][/size][/color]if there is only one reported event[/quote] Does "unnecessary" = [b]inappropriate[/b] or rong ?
[+1] - JTT - 10/20/2008[quote]Does "unnecessary" = inappropriate ... ?[/quote] Possibly, inappropriate for certain contexts.

@tanguatlay,

My birthday was last Friday.

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@tanguatlay,

Quote:

I think I should use 'fell'. Am I correct?

Yes. The past perfect, "had fallen," would be appropriate if you wanted to indicate that one event happened before another event. In your sentence, there's only one event so there's no reason to use the past perfect.

1 Reply

@Shapeless,

In his reported speech, there are two events. Most recently, Jack saying something, and before that, his birthday.

Jack said that his birthday had fallen on the previous Friday.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Jack said is the phrase that announces that events are about to be reported and needn't be chronologically positioned against the events that are actually reported. Using the past perfect here would imply that Jack's birthday once fell on last Friday but no longer does.

2 Replies

@Shapeless,

Sorry, Shapeless, but that's the way I was taught in English class, here in England.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Discrepancies happen. I can't remember how it was taught to me in school (in the U.S.), but it seems to me that in reported speech the actual act of reporting is understood to exist on a different chronological line from the events that are being reported, making the past perfect unnecessary if there is only one reported event. I know of no specific rule stating this; it's just my intuition, which is always fallible.

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@Shapeless,

Quote:

Contrex:
In his reported speech, there are two events. Most recently, Jack saying something, and before that, his birthday.

Jack said that his birthday had fallen on the previous Friday.

Shapeless is right when he/she says there are not two events. Reported speech makes use of backshifted tense FORMs. It does not, [once again], have anything to do with a past tense, it is merely a PAST TENSE FORM to indicate that the speech is not a direct quotation.

Quote:

Tanguatlay:

"My birthday fell on last Friday," said Jack.

This sounds slightly odd to me. Is it the choice of the verb "fall on" in this specific situation?

If the above is reported, which verb should I use?

Jack said that his birthday fell/had fallen on the previous Friday.

I think I should use 'fell'. Am I correct?

You could/can use either, Tanguatlay. It's reported speech so we have quite a bit of flexibility. CI's reply was also a very natural response.

Quote:

Shapeless:

Using the past perfect here would imply that Jack's birthday once fell on last Friday but no longer does.

It wouldn't and it couldn't hold that meaning in this situation, Shapeless because this is a reported speech situation and the backshifting that occurs with reported speech has nothing to do with actual change of tenses which we normally use to discuss past events.

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