View Profile Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 12:08 am
Brandon, you are my friend too. But frankly my dear, I think you protest too much. I have long made my peace with people who believe differently than I do in matters of religion, spirituality, and faith, none of which I see as one and the same. I neither need nor require you to believe as I do about any of those things and I accept that you disagree with me and that's okay. It has no emotional impact on me because I KNOW you have no means of proving your point of view to me any more than I have any means whastsoever of proving my point of view to you. Therefore you can't GIVE me an answer in matters of religion. You can only state your belief that is based on nothing more than that which you have come to believe and perhaps something of your thought processes that brought you to that point. But in a court of law, for instance, you would come up empty as having any evidence to back your claims. As would I.

I have read a LOT of the author of that quote, however, and I feel I am pretty certain he is speaking of that which can be dealt with objectively and with some degree of certainty. So I think the analogy I used in my response to Foofie is far closer to his intent than any matters of religion.

And you of course can and probably will disagree, but that's the way I see it just the same.

  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 06:39 am
Quote:
Was the statement emotionally unsatisfying to you? If so why? How would you word it to be emotionally satisfying to you?

No, the original quote wasn't emotionally unsatisfying to me, it was simply imprecise, which is what I explained above.

I find things emotionally satisfying when they are accurate and precise and logically consistent.

How would you word it to be emotionally satisfying to you?
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Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:20 am
Okay, but only because it's you.
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Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:36 pm
Quote:
The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied. They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer— and they don't want explanations that do not give them that.


I was re-reading D. Dennett’s "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" a little while ago so I saw this in a more basic evolutionary way and I think rosborne has put his finger on an important point:
Quote:
But in many cases the issues are complex. Compared to the volume of information out there, people have very little direct experience. Almost everything we know beyond the world we touch with our fingertips comes from other sources which we must choose to trust or not. But trust is an emotional thing. So most of the information we deal with in our lives is tinged with a dose of subjective emotionalism


I would bring it down a level, below emotions. Emotions could be viewed as what Dennett would refer to as an evolutionary "Good Trick". I would submit that our "emotions" are something we inherited from way back from creatures considered too primitive to be recognized to be any where near our ancestors (but they are), like, say, Lobed fin fish. In the real world quick actions are preferred over those less quick; blow on an animal's eyes and they blink. Noxious stimuli, such as extreme heat, produces a quick reaction response designed (by natural selection) for the good of the individual and the species. A small quick moving shadow will cause a herd like flight reaction in pigeons, but not every quick moving small shadow is a hawk. Better safe than sorry though.

We as humans have developed these reactions but also have built upon them to develop a decision mechanism that allows, in combination with real time environmental conditions, to make quick and dirty decisions that are necessary for survival. When you think how difficult and time consuming making decisions can be, these mechanisms allowed a way to avoid the "analysis to paralysis" problem. Soldiers are trained and drilled constantly and repeatedly so as to respond instinctively to battlefield situations--taking time to "think" during the heat of combat can be deadly. Perhaps emotions are the descendants of these "Quick and Dirty" mechanisms.

But emotions are still crude decision tools. They are based on past experiences combined with limited short term knowledge and assumed generalities. But how does this explain humans? How do we explain such vile reactions when discussing such things like politics or religion? Why do such reasoning and thinking beings behave so? Because we are not such beings. We feel we are intelligent and logical. That's half right, but anyone that has taken a course in logic or logical thinking is quickly disabused of this.

So, our first reaction to controversial or threatening ideas is emotional and without true thought. It is a primitive brain response not much more nuanced than a spinal reflex initiated by us touching a hot stove. It takes self restraint and this is not a basic animal instinct. This must be learned. Academic training is one way to this end but obviously not necessary. After all, one must remember all those great thinkers of the past that never went to Harvard or Yale.

Yes, the issues are complex, but I think people must want the facts and analytical explanations. Hopefully, we humans will evolve away from emotions and ideological xenophobia but we can't depend on that to free us from political tribalism. More tolerance would be good but, again we should not hold our breath. Villains are defined by our heroes but our heroes are not always correct.

JM
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View Profile Foxfyre
 
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Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 11:01 pm
rosborne979 wrote:

Quote:
Was the statement emotionally unsatisfying to you? If so why? How would you word it to be emotionally satisfying to you?

No, the original quote wasn't emotionally unsatisfying to me, it was simply imprecise, which is what I explained above.

I find things emotionally satisfying when they are accurate and precise and logically consistent.

How would you word it to be emotionally satisfying to you?



Here is how the author worded it:
Quote:
The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied. They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer— and they don't want explanations that do not give them that.


I don't think the statement is imprecise at all and for me it is provocative. And, because I discern a truth in it that had not occurred to me before, it is emotionally satisfying as it is.

One example:

In 1992 the same writer commented on the reports of price gouging in the wake of Hurricane Andrew. Most of us were incensed that motel managers were jacking up the price of a motel room and bottled water and batteries were going for exhorbitant prices. We all quickly saw a a clear right and wrong value judgment that could be applied to this situation. The people doing this were greedy grubby opportunists at best; criminal at worst.

Until. . . . .

The writer applied a different analytical perspective from the standpoint of pure economic principles. He pointed out that sky high prices limited demand for these precious and scarce commodities. A large family that might have rented two or three motel rooms made do with one leaving space available for others. People who would have bought extra bottled water to bathe or wash hair chose to forego such luxuries in the near term leaving precious drinking water available for others. People who might have hoarded batteries didn't and left supplies available to more people.

His explanation was hugely emotionally unsatisfying. We didn't want to see the motel manager or the merchants as anything other than hard hearted, opportunistic, greedy villains. And yet, intentionally or unintentionally, their practices, whatever the motives, accomplished a common good. I think many can see the truth in what he was saying. But we don't like hearing it.

We want our villains to be thoroughy evil and our heroes to be perfectly good. It is emotionally unsatisfying to know that none of them are and we sometimes work really hard to keep from admitting that none of them are.
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Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 11:07 pm
Noting and thinking too on James' different perspective. Lots to digest there.
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  2  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 03:22 pm
Quote:
Until. . . . .

The writer applied a different analytical perspective from the standpoint of pure economic principles. He pointed out that sky high prices limited demand for these precious and scarce commodities. A large family that might have rented two or three motel rooms made do with one leaving space available for others. People who would have bought extra bottled water to bathe or wash hair chose to forego such luxuries in the near term leaving precious drinking water available for others. People who might have hoarded batteries didn't and left supplies available to more people.


In economics this is termed proper allocation of capital and resources .The beauty of the capitalistic system, given free markets, is such auto correcting. The guys who have stuff do not set the price. The guys who want that stuff do not set the price. The price automatically sets itself and is defined as the price at which the seller will sell and the buyer will buy. When governments try to pick winners, like ethanol, they distort the market and therefore the correct pricing of the market. The governmental ethanol subsidy makes the price lower than it really is. This locks the government into providing the subsidy (all tax payers pay the difference, whether they use ethanol or not) like forever. Case in point: Iran subsidizes gasoline. When they recently tried to move the price closer to the unsubsidized market price (and this price was not even remotely close to the correct price) the public almost rioted. G.W. Bush yielded to political pressure and mandated a significant increase in the production of ethanol. This distorts the demand/supply curve not only for ethanol but for those resources needed for its production--now corn's price rises because there is more demand for it. But that means the rancher has to pay more to feed the cattle who are raised for beef whose price also rises. Lastly, congress just passed a tariff on cheap Brazilian ethanol, which is also plentiful. This is solely designed to keep the price of ethanol high to make it profitable to make. Given we want to encourage the use of ethanol in place of fossil fuels to run autos why don't we just by Brazilian ethanol? But ,due to government interference ,all taxpayers pay to produce more expensive ethanol that they may not use which raises the price of corn and beef and many other products made from corn. Not an emotionally satisfying situation!

It also important to realize that those rooms and batteries could have just been horded but weren't--the reason: free markets.

Oh well.

JM

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Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 03:58 pm
But in this context we don't want the technical explanation, James. How it all works is beside the point from the primitive level of feelings. Emotionally we want President Bush to be innocent. Or we want him to be guilty. We want to heap accusations on the inn keeper or merchant. We don't want any explanation that makes it more difficult to do that. Sometimes we will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid having to accept one.

This is the point I think the writer was making. In a sense he was saying that once our mind is made up, we resent having to deal with different facts.

As another example, probably all of us at some time have worked up a huge dislike or resentment of another person. We don't WANT anybody to tell us that we have misjudged them or are reading them wrong. It is more emotionally satisfying to wallow in the justification of feeling angry or resentful. We may even resent those who suggest we got it wrong (emotionally unsatisfying) while we feel warm and fuzzy toward those who agree with us (emotionally satisfying).

  2  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 05:49 pm
Quote:
Here is how the author worded it:
Quote:
The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied. They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer— and they don't want explanations that do not give them that.

I would have preferred if the author said, "SOME people do not want factual or analytical explanations...". I would have considered that much more accurate. But I'm picky about such things because accuracy is important to me.

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Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 05:55 pm
rosborne979 wrote:

Quote:
Here is how the author worded it:
Quote:
The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied. They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer— and they don't want explanations that do not give them that.

I would have preferred if the author said, "SOME people do not want factual or analytical explanations...". I would have considered that much more accurate. But I'm picky about such things because accuracy is important to me.



Me too (re accuracy). But since I agree with the writer that MANY people misunderstand many issues, the words he used are more emotionally satisfying to me. Smile (I have long been in issue-oriented professions that do perhaps make some concepts more familiar than might be apparent to those who deal with more absolutes.)

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  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 07:50 pm
Point taken.

JM
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