I'm out the Cave!

SATAN!

Could we say that religion is a way of catergorising what we do not know in the same way we catergorise what we do know?

As in: we do know apparent reality, and anything other than that is god/allah/spirit... providing a 'knowledge' (or definition) of what we don't know (a grand narrative)- and thus giving us a smaller, nicer, more complete cave to live in.

EP, yes, I think that's right: when you leave "the cave" you realize you've gone nowhere. The "gateless gate" of Zen Buddhism is like that. One passes from the room of samsara (delusion-falsehood) through the door of insight to the room of nirvana (enlightenment-truth) only to see that samsara equals nirvana. Appreciate both sides, and know that they are both our nature, not something to be attained or eliminated. This is the anti-dualism of mysticism. Bad philosophy because it transcends logic, but a healthy perspective nonetheless. Meditation (the central "mindless" practice of mysticism) is like taking vitamins rather than hearing lectures.

also, when one passes through one cave there is a feeling of joy and enlightenment, but this gradually fades as one begins to question the new cave which one finds oneself in. as soon as we start tapping against the walls, we begin to find solid and hollow parts of the cave, cracks and breaks in the walls etc. I suppose its the ability to allow the cave to crumble and let ourselves "shed our cave" as it were, rather than filling in the cracks, that we discover enlightenment continually. forever trascending.

Take it easy ep. You might start floating.

Nice, EP. We are never there, just going in that direction. How did William James state the principle?
(paraphrased:) "The 'bad person' is one who no matter how good s/he was is getting worse, and the 'good person' is one who no matter how bad s/he was is betting better. Direction is all."

Yeah, good descriptions all.
I like the 'shredding the cave' metaphor a lot.

And well done for the pc pronouns JL.

*Shedding, not shredding!

One more layer of skin.

What's all this yammering about caves? Why are all these voices disturbing me?
Leave me alone!

There's a good show on the wall... Lots of pretty shadows. Yeah, I know they are shadows of course! But they're way more fun then the mess outside, so leave me here.

I think I would probably be that same snide assh*le in Matrix 1 who barters his friends away for a chance of re-immersion in a fake reality. After all, by what definition is one perspective of reality better or worse then another?

That's hard, I don't know what I'd choose.

What would anyone else choose?

A valid question, najmelliw (by what criterion is one perspective on reality better or worse than another?). To answer that I'd have to resort to another, a meta-perspective. Then I'd have to justify THAT meta-perspective in terms of another criterion . And this could continue into an infinite regression. This is the reality of RELATIVISM.

the idea of always shedding ones cave could be compared to Heideggers idea of "Dasein", inasmuch as "Dasein is its possibility";we are always more of a potentiality than an actuality. I would say that we are always moving through our caves in some way, forever transcending and always becoming, we just spend more time in caves than we ever do in that brief transitional phase when we pass between two caves.

if one perspective supersedes another, like the shadows in Plato's cave were superseded by the "real" objects, then surely that is how one would determine the "better" perspective.

would you really want to "re-immerse" yourself in a "reality" that you "escaped"? why step out of one cave into another, and then just go back?

EP, this requires thought--which I don't have right now. I'll get back to you.

There is no measuring method to compare perspectives of reality with each other, hence it's very difficult to attest that the one perspective supersedes the other.
At best, you can gain a deeper, more meaningful understanding of how this reality and you as the central axis in it function. That is to say, that you deepen your understanding of those aspects of your reality that you feel are most important to comprehend. For some it's a quest for meaning in this life, for others it's understanding on how to prepare for the afterlife, for many it's understanding the physical and mathematical theories that make the world as we perceive it work. Plenty can't even be bothered, and just want to make life as they experience it as pleasant as they possibly can.

I guess you are inferring a perpetual journey of self-discovery. Of some sorts. That's actually a very worthwhile goal to strife for.
But, if you gain a new understanding of reality, one that you aren't happy with, wouldn't you want to go back to the 'happy' place?

I imagine, for instance, that the jews in the WWII concentration camps gained astonishing insights in the ranges of cruelty and compassion of others, but was the price to pay for this process worth the gain?
How about the trench warfare of WWI? Or the atrocities in Bosnia Herzegowina?

but its not like the Jews had choice to "gain astonishing insights in the ranges of cruelty and compassion of others".

and once you gain insight, or a deeper understanding of "reality", then its nearly impossible to "re-immerse" yourself into the former slightly more superficial "reality". to properly achieve that, you would need to be brainwashed like the character cipher is the matrix wanted.

its the people who are dependent on drugs and drink that don't like their reality and go back to their "happy place".

That's judgemental.

Everybody prefers a happy place. Few find it. Most have to face a reality that falls quite a bit short. Some of it face a harsher reality then others. Some are less capable to face it then others.

I for one piss on this(my) reality. But I don't drink and I don't do drugs. I listen to music to find my happy place.

i am from the cave of caves.

i chose not to leave, but to be the master of this domain.

hark! all those who are in chains, for i am the worst of the worst.

the maker of caves. creator of hate. enslaver of minds..