"The Mindless Menace of Violence"

OK, Rebecca:
here is the critique that I promised,
maybe a little late.
( In fairness, it shud be borne in mind
that I have always held the Kennedys in abhorence
since I first campaigned against them in 1960 and thay stole that election in Texas and Chicago. )

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On the Mindless Menace of Violence

City Club of Cleveland, Cleveland, Ohio
April 5, 1968

This is a time of shame and sorrow.
It is not a day for politics.
I have saved this one opportunity, my only event of today,
to speak briefly to you about the mindless menace of violence
in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

In other words:
LUCKY U !

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It is not the concern of any one race.
The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old,
famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings
whom other human beings loved and needed. No one - no matter where
he lives or what he does - can be certain who will suffer from some
senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on and on in this country of ours.

Obviously.
The world has always been a predatory environment,
since ( and before ) the dawn of man.
If violence simply ended,
that wud be an ASTONISHING and very unexpected development,
after millions of years of contrary experience.

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Why? What has violence ever accomplished?

Well, let 's c:
Where to begin ?
How about when David took out Goliath ?

The Kennedys are a Boston, Mass. family ( or is it Hyanisport ? )
How do thay feel about Mass. having sent troops to violently invade
the Southern states when thay withdrew from the Union in 1861 ? Right or rong ? Good or bad ?
Violent or peaceful ?
Did the Mass. troops carry muskets or flowers n chocolate for the Confederates ?

How did the Kennedys feel about the American response to Pearl Harbor ?
P.T. 109 ?

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What has it ever created?

How about the United States of America
( from which he accepted the office of Senator )
being born of George Washington 's success at the Battle of Yorktown, Virginia. ?
Washington pounded the English fort with violent artillery for 3 weeks
and took their Redoubt #10 violently with bayonets,
causing the English Lord Cornwallis to surrender in the last battle of the American Revolution.

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No martyr's cause has ever been stilled by an assassin's bullet.

Well, how about the federal assassinations of martyr Vicki Weaver
( who was shot to death by a federal sniper in the front doorway
of her home on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, as she held her baby in her arms )
and 14 year old martyr Sam Weaver, whom the federal murderers shot in the back,
as he ran for home as the federal thugs were enforcing an unconstitutional gun control law.
Thay were martyrs to freedom and their cause was defeated;
( tho their survivor, Randy Weaver, was awarded about a million dollars ).

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No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders.
A sniper is only a coward, not a hero;

That depends on the sniper 's target.

If Gavrilo Princip had been successfully sniped b4 he started WWI,
or if Karl Marx had been sniped b4 he spread his poison, starting WWIII,
millions of lives wud have been saved.

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and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of reason.

Whenever any American's life is taken by another American unnecessarily - whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of the law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence - whenever we tear at the fabric of the life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.

"Among free men," said Abraham Lincoln, "there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their cause and pay the costs."

Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike.
We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far-off lands.

Maybe he 'd like to sneak tranquilizers into the public water supply ??
or
with the birth of each baby implant a computer chip and a modem in his brain
to render him a docile servant of government ??
Like the Borg ??

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We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment.

He 'd like to repeal the First Amendment ??
Freedom never meant anything to the Kennedys; thay held it in contempt.

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We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire whatever weapons and ammunition they desire.

We do not " make it easy "; we merely acknowledge that criminals
of all shades of sanity can and will arm themselves, if such be their choice,
and short of killing them beforehand, there is NOTHING that can prevent it,
the same way that no one cud be prevented from getting alcohol
when his grandfather was a rum runner during the 1920s, or now as to marijuana.
The law of supply n demand is the Supeme Law of the Land; ( to say nothing of the Bill of Rights ).

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First let me say David - that you seem to be the old DAVID again!
The one that I first encountered when you were using large and colorful fonts
and being really, really funny, and YES- somewhat ECCENTRIC!

I have it on good authority, from people who shud know
( starting with my mother ) that such is the case.
I 've been described as being " like someone from another planet "
to " a pisser "; maybe a few other things.

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I think retirement agrees with you!!.

Yeah; I 'm just starting to recover from those last 3 weeks in chambers;
really exhausted; hard to stay awake.

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Your last post made me laugh in so many spots -
I think it should be entered into the running for that splendiferous post thread
I saw a while back (whatever happened to that?
People and threads and stuff just seem to DISAPPEAR around here).

Well, people have the adventures of their own lives that take them away,
as I was gone for those weeks at work.

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But a lot of what you said may only be funny to me - I don't know -
I appreciated your humor though. Thank you.

U r too kind

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The thread did start out to be about violence and Robert Kennedy's speech-
and you were supposed to come back with your take on that after you got some rest,

Check my last post.

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but by that time it had turned into being about why I liked England better than the US,
and stories about cider, and then it turned into why I left England in the first place -
and then it turned into questions on English/British attitudes toward the Revolutionary War
and then it was about WWI and me wanting you and Endy to be friends...
and now it's about.... who knows...but that's just ME and my conversational style - especially when you're around.

Remember when Snood brought us to task for that way back when?

Yeah.
I don 't know Y I don 't recognize more AUTHORITY in him.

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Anyway - I don't know how most women feel.

Gonna ask them ?

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I do know it seems that I travel more alone (and always have) spend more time outside alone,
eat in restaurants more alone, go to movies more alone

R there any differences u 've noticed
between American and English restaurants n movies ?

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(once I not only went to a movie alone, but I was the only person in the whole theater!
Can you imagine that?

Yeah; that happened to me once about 35 years ago at mid day.

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No one else I told about it had ever had that experience) than almost any of the women I know.
And since I like to and do do a lot of things alone,
I like to feel that I can be by myself and still feel safe.

I felt that way when I was 8,
until I got my first gun; a .38 revolver.
I felt pretty good then.

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I'm not a scaredy cat David.
Most people who know me think I'm pretty much the opposite of that.

Yeah; u seemed pretty brave to me in the restaurants.

David

Did u say something about ignorance being bliss, recently ?

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sad that I can't feel safe to do what I want where I want,
when I want and how I want-

Do u believe that American women in general
join u in that emotional state of mind ?
How about your mother in NJ ?
Your sisters ?
Female neighbors or co-workers ?

Tho, of course, I take u at your word,
I don 't recall my female acquaintances giving voice to that complaint.

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happy that I know there's somewhere else where I believe things are a little better.

Your prior posts have left no room for doubt
as to your fondness for England.
Accordingly, u certainly shud spend your life there
in an effort to fill your life with joy.
( The English accents get under my skin
and drive me nuts, after a while. )

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There's nothing objective about it,
except that I do think that my feelings are based in realistic and rational observations.

Does that include the skyrocketing violent English crime ?
A recently retired English police officer, ( whose name I don 't remember )
of fairly hi rank, wrote complaining of being forced on-the-job
to employ deceptive means of gathering statistics
to conceal the upsurge in violent English felonies;
for instance: counting multiple felonies committed on several victims
at the same time and place, as ONE crime;
the police officer felt abused,
forced to prostitute himself into fraud
to make English gun prohibition look not as bad as reality indicated,
in terms of effecting more crime and more bloody English victims.

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I don't think I'm delusional or making any of this up.

That question has never arisen.

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That's it-exactly- in a nutshell.
I feel free to do what I want, where I want, when and how I want
without having to worry about my safety. I really, really do.

So stipulated, qua your feelings.
U might consider giving Las Vegas a shot, b4 u leave.

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I feel less constricted in England, in almost every way.

U told us about walking ( I prefer cabs );
does that apply to any other English activities ?

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I think people are more able to see past their own views and needs and are committed to the idea that it's good to include or at least consider the views and needs of others there, more than they are here. I do think there is more of a committment to community there.

I imagine that 's how Tony Blair got elected.

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Even down to letting people be who they are.

Well, that 's more individualistic,
as distinct from the communitarianism which u just extolled.

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But that's how it is as a rule in England.
People just let you be who you are- eccentricity is celebrated.

So if, in a more intense effort to feel even SAFER
than u already feel in England, u opt to carry a small .38 revolver
in your purse, during your English travels,
thay will CELEBRATE ?

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Here people say, "Dang, that's weird," and wrinkle up their noses with distaste-
and that's the end of that - no more chances for that person.

I have lived in NY for a long time.

I have never personally seen that happen,
and I freely discuss off-the-beaten-path topics all the time,
like ESP, return from death in hospitals, vertebrate paleontology,
cosmology and quantum mechanics
reconciled with Einstein's Relativity Theory in 11 dimensions, etc.

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Anyway - I just remembered that I was really surprised (and a little mad)

Do u get that from your Dad ?

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at some comments you made on one of your threads a while back.
I can't remember what they were now -

If u succeed in indentifying them,
it 'd be fun to analyse them for their merits or lack thereof.

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I just remember it was on a thread you started on Christmas day.

I hope that I was not unChristmasy

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That's the first time I said to myself,
"That doesn't sound like something the David I know would say."

Well, a zebra has more than one stripe.
( If he had only one stripe, wud that make him a skunk ? )

Possibly, it cud have been a misunderstanding,
or a factual disagreement. The paucity of specific information
disables analysis, until it is supplemented.

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You said it to Endy.
I just want you to know that I think you guys would like each other if you met.
I haven't met Endy- but I've met you and I think you should let Endy
see the real you David. You know you're a nice guy- let him see that.

Anything cud be possible.
I bear him no ill will.
I have no memory of any earlier contact.
It did not occur to me to chase him away.

Sometimes I can be surly.

Endymion wrote:

i think kids should be protected from adult fantasy and 'make believe' as much as possible.

Thay have as much right to be informed as u do.

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The Death Wish films are the real insult to intelligence.

How ?
What insult ?

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Certificate 18 - and for good reason.

For protection.

What the hell does THAT mean ?
If someone steals your car ( or any other property )
and says that it s for your protection,
does that make OK ?
I don 't think so.

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Apart from the graphic rape scene in death wish II
(which i would consider child abuse to show a kid) -
revenge is a mug's game.

What does THAT mean ?
What is a mug ?

Everyone must decide for himself whether to execute revenge
and chance the consequences.

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A perversely negative Ouroboros,
destroying itself by becoming the very thing it set out initially to defeat.

Bronson never became what he set out to defeat.
He defeated what he sought out
( for a limited time, until the police ran him out of town; then he took up the same elsewhere ).

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Maybe some parents want more for their kids than miss-placed hero worship

The kids and everyone else,
of every age, are all free to believe whatever thay opt to believe,
and to worship whatever or whoever thay choose.
Everyone of any age is sovereign n autonomous between the ears.

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combined with self righteousness that deceives the weak
into thinking they can get away with murder/playing god.

WhatayaMEAN " deceives " ??
Have u proof that it cant happen ?

It was not murder.
He was ready to defend himself
( and in so doing, the REST of us, too ).
He was much more valuable to public safety than the police were.

If that happened in real life, I 'd CHEER.

He put the police to shame, by comparison.
He was a better deterent to violent criminals than thay were.
The criminals who Bronson had interred, were deterred PERMANENTLY.

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That they have the right to inflict their suffering onto others.

Yes; the right of revenge; of getting even.
There 's nothing rong with that.

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Anyway, the central character is a fake

It was not presented as having been a true story.
Many movies are not.

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If he'd really had a death wish
he would have stuck the gun in his own mouth and blown his own brains out.

Any chance that the wish for death
was against the bad guys
( like the ones who attacked his wife n child )
and that he carried out his wish ?

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The man was having a paddy.

What the hell 's a paddy ?

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He was out of control.

Under whose CONTROL do u want him to BE ?

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A police marksman would have brought him down for sure, in reality.

Nonsense.
He had no snipers aiming at him,
nor did he do anything rong.

He defended himself from violent depredations,
after enticing them, killing many violent criminals
and serving a very valuable purpose for the rest of us.
If the story were TRUE, then I 'd be very grateful to him.

He 'd have been much more valuable than most politicians.

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He went on a killing spree to distract himself from the painful reality.

Yes; he DID have fun with it,
but in the execution thereof, he made society much safer
for the rest of us. If it had been true,
how many violent felonies wud have been prevented
by the criminals being too dead to commit them ????????????

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He became what he despised rather than face his own grief.

Nonsense.
He did NOT become what he despised,
because he did not kill innocent, decent people.

Each of those criminals was a DANGER;
he extinguished those dangers.

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What a baby.

U thought he was too young ?
Well, maybe, but he made up for youth by his bravery.

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If he'd really loved the victims whose deaths are flaunted as an excuse,

U accuse him of hypocrisy ?
I do not remember him alleging that he loved anyone.
He merely acted upon his beliefs
( more than most folks do ).

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he would have honored them
by protecting others from similar violent death - not by dishing out more of it.

That is a really STUPID thing to say
( which is the reason that Edgar agrees with u )
that if Bronson loved,
then he wud AGREE with your cowardice.

Incidentally, " protecting others from similar violent death "
is absolutely impossible.

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I think it takes a brave man to feel the pain of injustice and deal with it inside
Endy

( Lemme get this straight: u think that if a man is NOT brave,
then it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to feel the pain of injustice ??
Therefore, cowards are immune to the pain of injustice ?
If the pain of injustice is inflicted upon a coward
[e.g., if someone unjustly slices off one of a coward 's ears] he will be unable to feel it ? )

Our hero, Bronson dealt with it
inside and outside.

Your post is very poorly reasoned, Endy.
David

WhatayaTHINK, Rebecca ?

David

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WhatayaTHINK, Rebecca ?

David

I think I should have minded my own business.
Seriously. And as soon as I brought up any of that old unpleasantness,
which I did in my post to you, I regretted it.
I apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings or which made you
remember things you'd rather not remember or which made you feel
that you may have said something you need to second guess or shouldn't have said.

But yes, I do think this is the thread to which I was referring,
if not the specific post. And I'm not going into why it bothered me-
in terms of what you said to Endy. Again, I am sincere when I say I
believe I should have minded my own business - and I will do that now.

But if you're asking me what I think about the Death Wish movies,
I'll tell you that I don't agree with or enjoy watching anyone who
relishes inflicting grievous or bodily harm on
anyone David, for whatever reason.

And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

And we are. These problems stem from all of the SHIT we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

And we allow this damage to fester

and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

and then when we get sick of the results as they are acted out in our society-
we say, "Put them to death"

I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

What do you think about our naughty governor?

Is it his money or someone elses he's spent on this?

And if you can spell "See" "C"- I can forget to capitalize Christmas.
Give me a break David - this is my time AWAY from school.

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I think I should have minded my own business.
Seriously. And as soon as I brought up any of that old unpleasantness,
which I did in my post to you, I regretted it.
I apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings or which made you
remember things you'd rather not remember or which made you feel
that you may have said something you need to second guess or shouldn't have said.

That did not happen.

Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

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And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

So far as I am aware,
this fiction ( which was a lot of fun ) -- maybe cathartic --
has never been manifested in real life.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

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I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Well, ( I won 't bring up Tim McVeigh or Saddam )
I guess that depends on how u define the offense.
If 2 children opt to play " doctor " I doubt that this penalty shud be executed upon them.

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Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

Thaat sounds interesting.
What did u find ?
Can u elaborate at greater length ?

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But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

Let us not lose sight of the fact that historically,
the main reason for the creation of government is to facilitate vengeance.
The social contract is, in essence:
" do not avenge yourselves.
Government will do it for u, after a fair trial to discriminate between
the guilty and the innocent. "
If government defaults in its duty,
then the right to get even reverts to the aggrieved party.
( See the Declaration of Independence ).

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And we are. These problems stem from all of the SHIT we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

WhatayaMEAN " allow " ???
With freedom of speech and freedom of the press being what it is,
who has jd to interfere with it ?????????

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And we allow this damage to fester

As distinct from WHAT ??
( i.e., what SHUD we do ?? )

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and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

WHO is doing the pouring ??

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I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

Is it better if the same content is expressed thru books,
or personal correspondence, or on the radio, or the movies ?
I 'd not be in a hurry to judge that the medium is more important
than the message.
Did u grow up with TV in your home ?

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In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

I venture to suspect that if u had a TV
u might well find some blissful moments on it.
U can compare it to going out with friends:
sometimes it will be good,
and other times disagreeable.

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What do you think about our naughty governor?

I always thought there was something twisted about him.
I was not even in high school b4 I knew about the Mann Act.
He did not have to violate that federal law to satisfy his lust.
He cud have met her in NY.
Maybe thay fortgot to teach him that in Harvard Law School,
and maybe he was not paying attention when he was busting
prostitution rings during his 8 years as NY Attorney General.
Good for a chuckle.

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Is it his money or someone elses he's spent on this?

HIs.

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And if you can spell "See" "C"- I can forget to capitalize Christmas.
Give me a break David - this is my time AWAY from school.

I c your point.

Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

Ha-ha...What about if what you're enjoying doing is wrong to do...
isn't that how we define sociopathic behavior?

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And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

So far as I am aware,
this fiction ( which was a lot of fun ) -- maybe cathartic --
has never been manifested in real life.

Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

Did you see the Jody Foster movie that ran along the same lines?
I think it was called, "The Brave One".

One of the major reasons I don't enjoy these movies is their contrived plot.
As you said earlier in this thread - the chances are very minute that
someone will have violence visited upon them even once in a lifetime.

So how do people like Charles Bronson and Jody Foster
just keep running into these situations -
sometimes even more than one in a single DAY!

Come on...

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I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night
and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Well, ( I won 't bring up Tim McVeigh or Saddam )
I guess that depends on how u define the offense.
If 2 children opt to play " doctor " I doubt that this penalty shud be executed upon them.

Yeah, child sex offenders David - not childhood sex offenders. I saw your new thread.
I wouldn't call for their execution - but I'd keep a close eye on a child
who seemed to like to experiment moreso than other children his or her age.

That's often an indication that they've had more experience forced upon them
than they were ready for or are able to process appropriately- by someone in their lives.

Children can be manipulative too, you know.

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Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

Thaat sounds interesting.
What did u find ?
Can u elaborate at greater length ?

Well, this girl in the news with Spitzer is a perfect example.
Apparently she was sexually abused as a child.
In general, victims of childhood sexual abuse struggle with feelings of worthlessness,
helplessness, and lack of control over their own lives and bodies.

They are more likely to have issues with learning and behavior problems in school,
and later, issues with addiction.

more likely to experience depression, homelessness, and maybe even incarceration,
and they are more likely to try to commit suicide at some point in their lives.

They are more likely to exhibit signs of sexual disfunction -
either in that they're inappropriately promiscuous or have no desire for or interest in sex at all.

They can show signs of either being inappropriately open and too willing to trust -
or of having issues with being able to trust anyone at all.

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But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

Let us not lose sight of the fact that historically,
the main reason for the creation of government is to facilitate vengeance.
The social contract is, in essence:
" do not avenge yourselves.
Government will do it for u, after a fair trial to discriminate between
the guilty and the innocent. "
If government defaults in its duty,
then the right to get even reverts to the aggrieved party.
( See the Declaration of Independence ).

David, knowing what you have spent your whole life doing for a living -
it's hard for me to believe that you believe LOGICALLY in vigilante justice.

I can certainly understand the visceral, emotional acceptance of such
in situations where it just is unbearable to think that a person
will get away with murder of your loved one, say.

But as someone who has worked in the legal system his whole life -
how do you see it working in the cold, hard, light of day to day society?

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And we are. These problems stem from all of the SHIT we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

WhatayaMEAN " allow " ???
With freedom of speech and freedom of the press being what it is,
who has jd to interfere with it ?????????

I don't think adults do a very good job
of making this world an eddifying place
in which children can grow up safely
and without having their very impressionable brains
and emotions somewhat twisted.

Why are we so interested in what's so negative and detrimental
to ourselves and our developing children? What does that say about us?

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And we allow this damage to fester

As distinct from WHAT ??
( i.e., what SHUD we do ?? )

We should be better people.

We should take greater care with and of our children.

And not just our own children.
I think every adult should look at every child
with a sense of some responsibility.

Because we will all be affected by that childs' problems
or sickness or behavior if we don't.

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and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

WHO is doing the pouring ??

The adults who have allowed our culture to become
a cesspool of violence and horror and deviance
(I am NOT talking about homosexuality here).

We just make everything too easy and available

and it has cheapened EVERYTHING for these kids.

I don't know if you every talk to any of these young people -

but I do EVERY DAY!
We just had a discussion the other day in which this young man said,
"I don't like my generation. It's hard and sick and twisted.
I wish I had been part of your generation," he said to me.
And this is a young (19 year old) black man from the Bronx- who had a
brush with the law - was in jail for three months- and can hang with the best of them.
These people aren't all out wilding in the streets reveling in the depravity they've been handed.

They do wish their world had been different.

And you might answer,
"Well, then they should make it different."

And I would answer back by asking,
"What tools have we given them with which to do this?"
Because as adults - I think that's our responsibility to them.

And I don't think we've done a good job of giving them the necessary tools.

Everything we show them in the wider culture as depicted by our media -
leads them in a negative direction instead of a positive one.

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I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

Is it better if the same content is expressed thru books,
or personal correspondence, or on the radio, or the movies ?
I 'd not be in a hurry to judge that the medium is more important
than the message.
Did u grow up with TV in your home ?

Yes, but I was never sat in front of it and given free reign.
I played outside moreso than inside - always-
I probably watched tv for one hour a night right before I was sent to bed at 9:00.

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In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

I venture to suspect that if u had a TV
u might well find some blissful moments on it.
U can compare it to going out with friends:
sometimes it will be good,
and other times disagreeable.

I'd rather read.
Even when I go to a hotel and I have a tv -
I can't stand the constant noise coming out of it.

And this (relatively) new phenomenon of 24 hour news with commentator
after commentator telling us all what we should think about stuff -
all that does is reinforce the sense these kids have that they
have to have their thoughts handed or fed to them.

Read the paper and make up your own mind.

Or if you need guidance, read an editorial.

How can people listen to these people say the same things
over and over and over again?
And WHY should they?

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What do you think about our naughty governor?

I always thought there was something twisted about him.
I was not even in high school b4 I knew about the Mann Act.
He did not have to violate that federal law to satisfy his lust.
He cud have met her in NY.
Maybe thay fortgot to teach him that in Harvard Law School,
and maybe he was not paying attention when he was busting
prostitution rings during his 8 years as NY Attorney General.
Good for a chuckle.

Yeah, he's a strange fellow isn't he?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I apologize for taking this long to answer.

To who me? No need David.

aidan wrote:

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Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

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Ha-ha...What about if what you're enjoying doing is wrong to do...
isn't that how we define sociopathic behavior?

Well, regardless of how we define it,
if the perpetrator is going to DO it,
he may as well enjoy it,
inasmuch as the victim probably will not,
and then NO ONE will like it: so that the enterprise is in vain.

Very coldhearted David...would that be your feeling if the sociopathic perpetrator visited his or her sickness upon your own loved one- that you hoped s/he'd enjoyed it so that you'd be assured that the 'enterprise' would not have been in vain?
I'm sincerely interested...do you regret that statement (or attempt at a joke if that's what it was)?

Because I can't see you having done your job so well for so many years if this were your attitude.

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Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

WHAT do u have in mind,
when u say "people like the Weavers " ?

Zealots to their cause, who may have caused the ATF agents (whose cause was opposed to the Weavers) concern and grief.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

So stipulated.

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Did you see the Jody Foster movie that ran along the same lines?
I think it was called, "The Brave One".

No, but thanx for bring this to my attention.
I LOVE Jodie Foster. (I think everyone shud)
I saw her on TV a few weeks ago; a talk show, maybe Leno.
She looked FANTASTIC; strikingly beautiful.
She has never been pudgy, but she lost some weight
and is now electrifyingly beautiful.

I always liked her.

I like her too - very intelligent and it comes across in her work. There's also a quiet peace about her- usually- although she also does play these tightly wound extremely tense characters very well too. The thing I like about her face is that it's animated. I think she's more attractive in movies than in stills- because then one can see the movement of expression and thought across her face- which is what I find most 'beautiful' about her. I don't think she's typically beautiful - but actually more interesting than that (to me).

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( I 've already heard the rumors of lesbianism: that 's fine with me. )

I'm sure she appreciates your willingness to be openminded about it David.

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One of the major reasons I don't enjoy these movies is their contrived plot.
As you said earlier in this thread - the chances are very minute that
someone will have violence visited upon them even once in a lifetime.

It did not seem far-fetched during the movie.
It did not seem improbable.

I was talking about the Brave One. I haven't watched anything other than trailers for Death Wish...not my cup of tea. I may have only glanced at the cover...but I know I'd never watch the movie. Charles Bronson never appealed to me as an actor.

I wouldn't call for their execution - but I'd keep a close eye on a child
who seemed to like to experiment moreso than other children his or her age.

He might resent the espionage intruding upon his libidinous adventures.
That happened to my cousin, Tommy, when he was about maybe 15
give or take a year or so. He 's in his 40s now.
His girlfriend was in bed with him and his mother got very upset
and caused some trouble; maybe threw out the girl; so long ago.

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That's often an indication that they've had more experience forced upon them
than they were ready for or are able to process appropriately- by someone in their lives.

1 ) What is the source of your information on this point ?
about the force ?

What criteria is it judged ( and who judges ) when the child
is " ready " for it ?
In my own experience,
I was the final, only and autonomous judge qua my own sexuality.

I never considered discussing this with any member of my family.
The closest I came to any discussion of this was when friends -- kids my age--
discussed THEIR sexual feelings with me.

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Children can be manipulative too, you know.

That is probably their most effective tool

1 ) HOW r we defining "sexually abused"? brutal rape ?
I ask because I remember having sexual relations with 2 chics
( at different times n places, not together ) when I was 11;
the first girl was 17 and the other was 23.
I am very glad to have had these experiences in my life.
I certainly felt that way then and feel that way now.

3 ) Qua the issue of "worthlessness":
I always (implicitly) defined worth as the quality of being able to
elevate my happiness n contentment;
for instance, more cash or more ammunition cud make me happier,
so cash n ammo are WORTH something.
Accordingly, it 'd be impossible for me to feel "worthless"
no matter how much sex I had or did not have.
My own contentment was the standard by which I judged value.

4 ) How does free volition of the child fit into what u r describing ?

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They are more likely to have issues with learning and behavior problems in school,
and later, issues with addiction.

If u r comparing n contrasting proportional successes n failures
among people who had sexual experiences during youth
( I am not sure whether u mean volitional or extorted )
then how have u ascertained the degree of sexual experience
of successful young scholars ?

I think boys r much more likely to say: "do that to me one more time !"

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more likely to experience depression, homelessness, and maybe even incarceration,
and they are more likely to try to commit suicide at some point in their lives.

I re-iterate my question:
have u ( or anyone ) compared n contrasted them
with successful young people who 've had sexual pleasure during youth ?
Is it possible that the depression, homelessness etc. can occur in virgins ?
Were thay depressed because thay did not get enuf sex ?
Admittedly, some people, AT ALL AGES, are anti-sexual from cradle to grave,
whereas their neighbors may enjoy what thay detest.

Has there been any study comparing suicide rates
between people who were fully virginal thru out their youths
and those who were "sexually abused" however u r defining that ?

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They are more likely to exhibit signs of sexual disfunction -
either in that they're inappropriately promiscuous or have no desire for or interest in sex at all.

Has this been contrasted with people who were 100% untouched by
any sexual experience thru out youth ?
Who never " played doctor " with other children ? or however u r define "sexual abuse" ?

I can certainly understand a woman hating sex
after an ugly n brutal rape; is that what u have in mind ?